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OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

Oh for once I agree with AG! Yes, I think the Melbourne model is the one to follow - building a casino/entertainment complex doesn't mean the city will become trashy. And quite frankly, it gives tourists a reason to go to the Ex-area.

neubuilder:

I don't agree with site-ing it at the Portlands for many reasons (uncertain plans, lack of critical mass/synergy with other attractions, infrastructure deficit etc), but just how does a casino at the Ex preclude something "great" and "ruin" the entire waterfront, when you have absolutely no idea how the actual physical proposal will entail is beyond me.

AoD
 
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If building a casino allows Ontario Place/Exhibition Grounds complete their renovations, I'm all for it. The Ex re-jig to allow for outdoor concerts and the refurbishing of the waterpark would be more than enough benefit for me to be happy to see Toronto fleece folks of their hard-earned dough.

Looking at the map, I'd probably build the casino on the west island, which has never been much of a draw:
http://www.ontarioplace.com/sites/default/files/at-the-park/park-map/2011-park-map-web.pdf
 
If building a casino allows Ontario Place/Exhibition Grounds complete their renovations, I'm all for it. The Ex re-jig to allow for outdoor concerts and the refurbishing of the waterpark would be more than enough benefit for me to be happy to see Toronto fleece folks of their hard-earned dough.

Looking at the map, I'd probably build the casino on the west island, which has never been much of a draw:
http://www.ontarioplace.com/sites/default/files/at-the-park/park-map/2011-park-map-web.pdf

I'd love to see them turn Ontario Place into an eco-friendly NASCAR-racing track/zoo/aquarium. Days of Thunder-meets-Jumanji-meets-Avatar.
 
like others.....I did not see anything in the OLGs announcement that "Toronto" was getting a casino....only that they would be looking to locate a casino somewhere in the GTA. I wonder if they might look at the Vaughan area, around the subway extension. Few places have as much "blank slate" land available with the access features as that location.

For those that oppose the notion of a casino....take heart in the promise that they will respect the opinion of local government and start telling your councillors now that what you want is no casino. For those for a casino....same suggestion.

I don't really care if, or where, a GTA casino is located....anywhere but Downsview......that thing is getting further away from a "park" with each and every idea that comes up for it.
 
neubuilder:

I don't agree with site-ing it at the Portlands for many reasons (uncertain plans, lack of critical mass/synergy with other attractions, infrastructure deficit etc), but just how does a casino at the Ex preclude something "great" and "ruin" the entire waterfront, when you have absolutely no idea how the actual physical proposal will entail is beyond me.
AoD

Halifax: the waterfront for the most part is vital and energized, until you get to the casino, where it dies completely. Everything around it to the north and west is a dead zone. All of the activity (if you can call staring at slots activity) happens in the windowless facility.

Vancouver: Same thing. The building is glitzy and impressive for about 5 seconds, until you realize it's a dead zone.

Windsor: The casino has done nothing to revitalize the economy and certainly nothing for it's waterfront, which it now dominates.

Victoria: The casino has ensured than an already dead strip of arterial road will never come to life.

Casinos do not add anything beneficial to their surroundings. They require vast amounts of parking, they do not stimulate any spinoff activities, when people leave they go home, usually broke and depressed.

The best place for a casino is under the flight path of Pearson Airport, though residents of Brampton may disagree.
 
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FWIW, I don't really think of the Ex/OP as 'the waterfront'. A casino at OP is going to be no better nor worse than anything else at OP -- i.e. cut off from the rest of the city.

Otto -- try Against the Grain in the Corus. Great deck right on the water, decent food, lots o' fun.
 
So you don't mind the province "running the booze," and reaping huge profit margins at the expense of the consumer?
Yet, you're ashamed of this exploitation to provide health care? I don't get it.

You don't get it because you weren't paying attention to what I was saying.

First of all, having a "socialized" provincial booze distribution isn't at the expense of the consumer at all....that money is provincial revenue that would otherwise have to be generated by higher general taxes. I'm in favour of socialized booze and gambling, for the same reason I am for socialized health care....in private hands we would be worse off.
be
But the purpose of these things were about "control", not to considered a major source of government revenue, to be "expanded" for the purpose of increasing said revenue, so they don't have to raise general taxes as much, which is what they try to avoid. The gov't has lost sight of the original mandate. And once it's done, it's hard to undo. Same goes with charities...they rely far too much on gambling revenues to raise funds, which means it dries up traditional means of raising funds. It's a bad kind of laziness. And if they have to compete with expanded giant privately run casino operations , "charity" casinos will die.


Ontario Place is the obvious choice. Much of the land is essentially closed down, abandoned and farrow now.

Well, if Tory changes his mind about casinos being off the table for Ontario Place, perhaps we could locate Mamoliti's whore houses there too. After all, I can't think of two industries that go more hand-in-hand than gambling & prostitution....it's a natural.

Zeidler's Pods would be perfect, and the Cinisphere could show giant porn films (upgraded to 3D of course).

You might as well get any ideas of glamerous casinos for the waterfront ala Monte Carlo. Gambling has NEVER been about "entertainment" (not even in Monaco, where it was considered a necessary evil to save the ruling family from bankruptcy), because it isn't entertainment...or "tourist attractions".

Casinos are "schemes" to rake in money....that's why it attracts the riffraff. They aren't legitimate ideas to rejuvenate our waterfront for raise revenue for the benefit of the city, which needs to be all-inclusive.

That said, I'm not saying it should be "banned"....gambling will go on whether we like it or not, so it should be a "controlled substance" to prevent it from becoming a big problem (and keep out the riffraff as much as possible).

If we are getting one, it should either be somewhere out in the boonies, and not eat up any of our waterfront, which is about other things. But then again, the western section of the CNE grounds would be a good spot. The Ontario Government Building has already been operated as a casino, and if you squint the right way, the building does have a Monte Carlo Casino sorta look to it. That building isn't big enough, so they could include the two underused old CNE buildings around it (Horticulture & Arts & Crafts buildings). That section of the CNE grounds is actually not even part of the CNE anymore. In fact, the CNE is such a shadow of its former self, I only like it for nostalgic reasons...it should probably be put out of its misery and the entire EX grounds completely redesigned for something useful and year-round.
 
First of all, having a "socialized" provincial booze distribution isn't at the expense of the consumer at all....that money is provincial revenue that would otherwise have to be generated by higher general taxes. I'm in favour of socialized booze and gambling, for the same reason I am for socialized health care....in private hands we would be worse off..

On this we agree FCG. I too would rather pay higher consumption tax (ie alcohol) than income tax.

I have many other ideas for health care reform to reduce waiting times but won't hijack this thread with them.

. But then again, the western section of the CNE grounds would be a good spot. The Ontario Government Building has already been operated as a casino, and if you squint the right way, the building does have a Monte Carlo Casino sorta look to it.

Now we're talking!
 
neubuilder:

Halifax: the waterfront for the most part is vital and energized, until you get to the casino, where it dies completely. Everything around it to the north and west is a dead zone. All of the activity (if you can call staring at slots activity) happens in the windowless facility.

Vancouver: Same thing. The building is glitzy and impressive for about 5 seconds, until you realize it's a dead zone.

Windsor: The casino has done nothing to revitalize the economy and certainly nothing for it's waterfront, which it now dominates.

Victoria: The casino has ensured than an already dead strip of arterial road will never come to life.

I don't think you have established a cause-effect relationship. Nothing you have said suggests the presence of the casino is what caused the problem. Interestingly, you haven't used Niagara Falls (especially the old one) as an example of a casino integrated into the urban fabric that actually created quite a bit of street traffic.

AoD
 
neubuilder:

I don't think you have established a cause-effect relationship. Nothing you have said suggests the presence of the casino is what caused the problem. Interestingly, you haven't used Niagara Falls (especially the old one) as an example of a casino integrated into the urban fabric that actually created quite a bit of street traffic.

AoD

There is no cause and effect relationship to establish. Casinos add nothing to their surroundings. Period. Put a casino in a prime location, and you've added nothing, except a glitzy building, the need for parking, and a bunch of zombies walking to and from their cars.

Niagara Falls isn't a useful example because the conditions are too different - N.F. is a Casino town, my examples are not. The examples I gave are instances where casinos are incorporated into existing cities with diverse economies. In all of my examples except victoria the casinos were situated in prime locations. They added nothing to the life of their context. In fact they sucked the life away - they might as well be gussied-up mini storage warehouses in terms of what they contribute to city life.

The only reason for promoting casinos is that they are said to generate revenue, BUT there is too much evidence that suggests that the net-economic benefits are outweighed by the costs, so the economic argument doesn't even hold up.

What is so appealing to you about the idea of having a casino on or near the waterfront anyways?
 
My gut feeling tells me that the temporary casino will be located at the Ex. It's an obvious choice with the amount of parking, access, and the fact that it already is one during the summer months. The permanent casino will probably get built at Woodbine because it's priximity to the Airport, the approval of the $750 million complex there and the fact that Woodbine Entertainment Group have expressed their desire to have a full casino there. Sorry freshcut, it won't be in the "boonies"...too many casinos in the boonies already! Most of which have been steadily losing money over the past several years. Toronto is it.
 
There is no cause and effect relationship to establish. Casinos add nothing to their surroundings. Period. Put a casino in a prime location, and you've added nothing, except a glitzy building, the need for parking, and a bunch of zombies walking to and from their cars.

Yes, the Ex is such a prime location - so prime that it is used as parking lots for 9 months of the year. While I don't condone the act of gambling, to call people "zombies" just because they visit one is suggestive of your own personal biases more than a supporting argument.

Niagara Falls isn't a useful example because the conditions are too different - N.F. is a Casino town, my examples are not. The examples I gave are instances where casinos are incorporated into existing cities with diverse economies. In all of my examples except victoria the casinos were situated in prime locations. They added nothing to the life of their context. In fact they sucked the life away - they might as well be gussied-up mini storage warehouses in terms of what they contribute to city life.

That's laughable, as if somehow NF is a casino town before the casino opened. And yes, here are the "prime sites" you mentioned - pay special notice to the wonderful surroundings:

Vancouver:
Edgewater.jpg


Windsor:
Windsor.jpg


Victoria:
Victoria.jpg


Such prime sites that the predominant immediate land use is anything but prime.

AoD
 
Sorry freshcut, it won't be in the "boonies"

Sorry MadMax, but I consider Woodbine the "boonies".

I prefer Woodbine over the EX, because of the reasons you stated. Not that I would put horse racing (especially the calibre of Woodbine) in the same category as legends of zombies throwing coins into slot machines. And that's the real problem here...the image of guys in tuxedoes at the roulette table vs what really constitutes casinos in Ontario.

But the problem for Woodbine (and anybody else), is that OLG isn't just wanting to expand their operations to grab more of taxpayers after tax money...they also want to claw back in revenue sharing. What needs to be clawed back...is OLG.


I don't think you have established a cause-effect relationship. Nothing you have said suggests the presence of the casino is what caused the problem.

Nobody can say you're wrong about that. But it misses the point....the solution is to come up with something that will actually revitalize the area...not put something there that will guarantee it will remain a dead zone.
 
Haha... You consider Woodbine the boonies??? I'd hate to think what you would say abou Guelph. You do know that Etobicoke which is about 10 minutes away from downtown is a district of Toronto right?
 

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