Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[PinkLucy]

Have we? Vaas mentioned above that he'd not been able to successfully tap onto the SAME 509 he'd already tapped on in the other direction a few minutes earlier. Did I miss one that reported what happened with 2 different 509 vehicles?

Why does it have to be two different vehicles?

You said they fixed it to so you couldn't transfer on to the same route. Both Vaas and Megaton did this -- Vaas riding the 509 back and forth, so he did transfer on to the same route, albeit on the same car.

 

[Megaton327]

Why does it have to be two different vehicles?

You said they fixed it to so you couldn't transfer on to the same route. Both Vaas and Megaton did this -- Vaas riding the 509 back and forth, so he did transfer on to the same route, albeit on the same car.

I said nothing of the sort--when I tried it on another vehicle (they were only on 510 at the time), in November 2014, it charged me two fares, per TTC fare/transfer policy, not a free transfer.

It should generally be two different vehicles--there is really no legitimate case on the TTC today where you would be entitled to a free transfer on the same car you get off of. The current discussion, I believe, is things like short turns, in which case it would necessarily be a different car.

It is important, though, that when tapping on the same car, if you happen on it by chance making your return trip, that you are allowed to pay your fare again with Presto--recent observations indicate that is not the case, but of course we have not hit the deployment date for the full streetcar network Presto implementation.

Again, to some extent this is all a bit of a moot point--we simply don't know exactly what they're doing with the upcoming changes, and frankly it looks like neither the TTC nor Metrolinx/Presto even know everything themselves. All of this is theoretical at this point, and we'll find out for sure in a couple of weeks.

 

[vaas]

To clarify, when I realized I had to go back to where I started I was just pulling into Union. So I just stayed in my seat and rode it all the way back. I didn't get off mid-route and take a different 509 going the other direction. I was on the same streetcar (#4403) back and forth, and back again.

 

[PinkLucy]

I said nothing of the sort--when I tried it on another vehicle (they were only on 510 at the time), in November 2014, it charged me two fares, per TTC fare/transfer policy, not a free transfer.

It should generally be two different vehicles--there is really no legitimate case on the TTC today where you would be entitled to a free transfer on the same car you get off of. The current discussion, I believe, is things like short turns, in which case it would necessarily be a different car.

It is important, though, that when tapping on the same car, if you happen on it by chance making your return trip, that you are allowed to pay your fare again with Presto--recent observations indicate that is not the case, but of course we have not hit the deployment date for the full streetcar network Presto implementation.

Again, to some extent this is all a bit of a moot point--we simply don't know exactly what they're doing with the upcoming changes, and frankly it looks like neither the TTC nor Metrolinx/Presto even know everything themselves. All of this is theoretical at this point, and we'll find out for sure in a couple of weeks.

I didn't say YOU said it ... nfitz said there were tweets saying that it was fixed so that you couldn't transfer on the same route. I was using your earlier post as an example of you having tried to tap in a second time on the same route.

But the point is that these anomalies have yet to be sorted out and are what cause confusion.

 

[crs1026]

Sometimes it's interesting to look at where we've come from. I was rereading the Auditor General's assessment of Presto progress, their followup in 2014 to an original look in 2012

http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/reports_en/en14/408en14.pdf

Presto has cost as much as an entire LRT line, and we don't have the TTC part worked out yet....let alone fare integration issues such as transfers from the TYSSE (when it opens) to the non-TTC bus routes north of Steeles.

The A-G noted that Presto was on the way to become the continent's most expensive fare collection system. When written, the TTC was not yet on board, and all the A-G could report is that work was under way. I wonder if the A-G intends to revisit the issue after the TTC rollout is further along.

And, we are way past the point of no return.... all we can do is keep shelling out more cash and hoping it works well, eventually.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Why does it have to be two different vehicles?

Because while I can imagine many valid transfers from two different vehicles on the same route, I'm hard-pressed to think of a valid one from the same vehicle.

You said they fixed it to so you couldn't transfer on to the same route. Both Vaas and Megaton did this -- Vaas riding the 509 back and forth, so he did transfer on to the same route, albeit on the same car.

No, he didn't transfer. He took to trips in quick succession in two different directions; in this case he didn't get off - but if he had got off at Strachan and got on again in the opposite direction on the same car it would be the same. I live near the end of a streetcar line, I have this happen too occasionally.

He also said it didn't work. It neither accepted the tap as a transfer, nor did it charge a fare. It simply refused to process it, assuming he was tapping a second time in error.

 

[ksun]

Sometimes it's interesting to look at where we've come from. I was rereading the Auditor General's assessment of Presto progress, their followup in 2014 to an original look in 2012

http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/reports_en/en14/408en14.pdf

Presto has cost as much as an entire LRT line, and we don't have the TTC part worked out yet....let alone fare integration issues such as transfers from the TYSSE (when it opens) to the non-TTC bus routes north of Steeles.

The A-G noted that Presto was on the way to become the continent's most expensive fare collection system. When written, the TTC was not yet on board, and all the A-G could report is that work was under way. I wonder if the A-G intends to revisit the issue after the TTC rollout is further along.

And, we are way past the point of no return.... all we can do is keep shelling out more cash and hoping it works well, eventually.

- Paul

" In total, more than $700 million could be paid to Metrolinx ... for developing the original Presto system and PNG, which would place Presto among the more expensive fare-card systems in the world."

$700M on a fare payment system even third world countries nowadays use? It is a payment card, not an airplane for Christ's sake.

 

[nfitz]

$700 million paid to Metrolinx? By TTC?

TTC's payment to Metrolinx is 5.5% of revenue. A $700 million payment would reflect $12.7 billion in revenue. I'd guess that's about 10 years.

Why is this an issue? The case was that this is similar to what TTC is already spending doing the same thing now.

$700M on a fare payment system even third world countries nowadays use? It is a payment card, not an airplane for Christ's sake.

Why do you think it would be free? If they went to Interac/Visa/MC, it would be a similar cost, and Interac/Visa/MC wouldn't be out there installing and maintaining thousands of readers all across Toronto! (which is why in the long-run, I expect that using a Presto card/device is always going to be cheaper than using other cards).

 

[crs1026]

$700 million paid to Metrolinx? By TTC?

TTC's payment to Metrolinx is 5.5% of revenue. A $700 million payment would reflect $12.7 billion in revenue. I'd guess that's about 10 years.

I took it to mean that Presto's development costs have exceeded $700M. That may not be coming from TTC alone.

Do I understand you to be saying that fare collection costs TTC 5.5% of revenue now? That's one in 19 tokens just to count the tokens?

(Yes, I know, the big bank cards charge vendors some %..... but why is that the benchmark?)

If TTC is saying they will lose $20M in annual revenue thru time based transfers..... how does that compare with the cost of programming all those transfer tables?

I would say, a little rough justice may be preferable....TTC should suck it up and we should have a more parsimonious fare collection system.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

I took it to mean that Presto's development costs have exceeded $700M. That may not be coming from TTC alone.

Why would Presto's development cost be paid to Metrolinx?

Do I understand you to be saying that fare collection costs TTC 5.5% of revenue now? That's one in 19 tokens just to count the tokens?

That's what I recall being the case that was made back in the discussion in 2012; but - at least a similar magnitude. Tens of millions of dollars. I'm not seeing a hard number anywhere right now, but I'm sure we've discussed previously.

You can deduce the cost somewhat though, by look at child's fares. They had about $7 million in revenue in 2014, but the the 2015 budget, the loss of revenue from stopping to collect child's tickets was only $1.7 million. So the fare collection costs of those 10.8 million rides as $5.3 million. Or almost 50¢ a ride.

With 61 million rides at the $2 or $3 fare last year, and 145 million rides last year using tokens or tickets, then if the cost of those fare collection was the same, they are looking at about $100 million to collect cash, tickets, and tokens a year. That's about 19% a year rather than 5.5%.

Presumably there's some economies of scale ... because that seems like a lot even to me - and doesn't even start to cover the cost of over 300 million rides a year done by pass.

There must be some hard numbers somewhere - 19% cost seems atrocious and unbelievable!

 

[Electrify]

Longest trial I've ever heard of...it's been over 10 years.

In January 2014, the TTC board voted to:

• End the trial of the time-based transfers on the 512 St. Clair route if the implementation of a time-based transfer across all of the TTC is not implemented as part of the 2015 TTC operating budget

I'm not aware of any directives since then - so I don't really understand why staff didn't end it at the end of 2014 as per the board's direction.

I was discussing this with nfitz on Twitter earlier today. When I am downtown and am using Presto, I fully intend to use this as a "two hour transfer," and if I am caught, I will fight it.

There is nothing all that special about the 512, besides operating in its own lane (which also holds true for Spadina and Habourfront), it runs just like any other TTC route. So why does it get a special transfer while the rest of the system does not? Why can residents in that area make numerous stopovers on a single fare while everyone in the rest of the city - most of which is not as well off as those along this avenue - has to pay multiple fares?

Well, the reasoning is that it is a pilot project. That's swell. So after TEN FUCKING YEARS, I assume they will have no problems presenting all of the data they've collected over the last decade in court to backup their case? I mean, after such a long period, they must have all sorts of statistics regarding its effect on ridership, on pass purchasing behaviour, on traffic congestion, on customer-driver relations, on merchant business, etc. It cannot be because a few connected people just like having a special discounted fare to increase their property values, while the rest of the city has to cover their costs. And being a public agency, I'm sure they would have no problems explaining why a pilot project should last over a decade by releasing this data to public record for their case... That is, assuming that despite improving on all the things mentioned earlier, which should be the #1 goal of a public transit agency, it is determined that the TTC makes more money by charging full price for short trips with stopovers and selling passes which don't break even until after nearly 50 rides.

Nfitz was saying this was stealing. Well, is it stealing when you buy a pass and somehow manage to make more than 50-60 trips a month (the TTC thinks so). Is it stealing when a prick TTC driver decides your transfer "isn't good" and forces you to pay another fare? Sorry, I don't consider this "stealing." I paid my fare, the same god damn fare those along St. Clair have been paying since 2005. Stealing is taking something that you didn't pay for, it's not when you don't play by a control freak's psychotic rules.

 

[nfitz]

Nfitz was saying this was stealing. Well, is it stealing when you buy a pass and somehow manage to make more than 50-60 trips a month (the TTC thinks so). Is it stealing when a prick TTC driver decides your transfer "isn't good" and forces you to pay another fare? Sorry, I don't consider this "stealing." I paid my fare, the same god damn fare those along St. Clair have been paying since 2005. Stealing is taking something that you didn't pay for, it's not when you don't play by a control freak's psychotic rules.

Of course it's stealing.

And as a taxpayer, you are stealing from me.

I see little difference between the morals of this and robbing a bank.

 

[Electrify]

Of course it's stealing.

And as a taxpayer, you are stealing from me.

I see little difference between the morals of this and robbing a bank.

So when someone uses a transfer from the 512 for a return trip, is that stealing?

 

[crs1026]

There must be some hard numbers somewhere - 19% cost seems atrocious and unbelievable!

Rather old data, but it was 7% in 2000

http://www.transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/reports/fare.pdf

and, while he doesn't cite a source, Steve Munro gives the same number in 2015

http://stevemunro.ca/2015/06/23/ttc-announces-end-for-tokens-tickets-transfers/

By this standard, Presto appears to be a bargain at 5.25%, but the question would be what incremental Presto-related costs do the transit properties also incur - they now have additional data and IT staff to maintain the hardware, manage the data tables, deal with program changes, etc. that are on top of the charges by Metrolinx. That moves things closer to 7% again.

Since cash fares will remain, TTC will still have all the overhead of collection boxes on all vehicles and at subway stations, and related divisional cash handling, collection, coin counting and bank deposits, etc. Some of this is fixed cost that won't change when tokens and tickets go away. The money collected will go down as people transition to Presto - so the % for this subset of total revenue will go up.

This 2012 report http://www.metrolinx.com/en/aboutus/publications/PRESTO_Phase_2_Review_Appendix_B_EN.pdf
states that the original Presto contract with Accenture was worth $250M and the change orders associated with Phase 2 totalled a further $143M. I'm too tired to look for subsequent outlays.

Seems to me that Metrolinx needs to be challenged to achieve lower rates, no different than we want lower service charges from banks. The rate charged to TTC can stay at 5.25%, but the difference can go to amortizing the capital investment.

It sure seems that we should be sinking these big amounts into laying track, not building complex software.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

So when someone uses a transfer from the 512 for a return trip, is that stealing?

Of course not, that's policy.

Different parts of the city have different policies. Nothing new there. We see it with snow removal, and leaf collection as well.