Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[LNahid2000]

I got the feeling the GPS location is not very precise half the time. Half of the locations I see on presto website for my trips are off by a few stops, no location or at the bus garage. Many people will be mistakenly charged if you let the presto reader do its job.

And many people will have arguments with the driver if the system said they tapped on at a location where they didn't. I've noticed my locations are off as well, but I'm not sure how having drivers deciding if your transfer is valid based on the possibly inaccurate tap location shown on their screen will fix this.

Switching to an actual 2 hour transfer is really the best solution for everyone.

 

[nfitz]

No idea why the tap block needs to be set at 2 hours...on most systems it's 5 minutes. Or you have a 2 hour transfer so that it's not even a problem!

I'm not sure it is 2-hours. At one point TTC had me speak with one of the troubleshooters at Presto - I think it was 40 minutes or something - less than an hour. But that was a while ago. I commented it would get even worse once the buses were online (given how some have really short routes, and sometimes only one bus), and they said something like "no it won't, buses are only 5 minutes" (or was it 10 ... I should have been making notes). Which left me scratching my head why streetcars needed to be any longer.

It was a good conversation - but it was clear they didn't really understand TTC. She seemed very suprised when I mentioned that short-turns were a regular daily occurrence - I got the impression they seemed to think it was a rare event, and could be dealt with using emergency transfers or something. Sounds like they've got there mind around those at least.

 

[amnesiajune]

Given the fact that the GPS can be wonky, it's better for drivers to decide.

And again, what is a driver going to do if they "decide" that your transfer is invalid?

In all honesty, it seems like Presto is going to lead the TTC to implement two-hour transfers across the entire system, whether they like it or not - or at the very least, formalize the policy of unlimited surface route transfers. They have to realize at some point that it's impossible for an automated system to figure out the TTC's transfer policies.

 

[Steve X]

And many people will have arguments with the driver if the system said they tapped on at a location where they didn't. I've noticed my locations are off as well, but I'm not sure how having drivers deciding if your transfer is valid based on the possibly inaccurate tap location shown on their screen will fix this.

Switching to an actual 2 hour transfer is really the best solution for everyone.

The driver would know if they stop is valid or not. Even if the transfer is valid, the driver would be able to control the reader to take a fare and tell you to tap again to board. It's just like showing a valid paper transfer at a non transfer point. It's valid but no you don't get to board.

I agree that they should just move to something simpler like a time based system. The current transfer rule is complicated and the driver judges the paper transfer to determine if it's valid or not. Everyone judges differently. Not very customer friendly at all.

And again, what is a driver going to do if they "decide" that your transfer is invalid?

In all honesty, it seems like Presto is going to lead the TTC to implement two-hour transfers across the entire system, whether they like it or not - or at the very least, formalize the policy of unlimited surface route transfers. They have to realize at some point that it's impossible for an automated system to figure out the TTC's transfer policies.

I did say FUTURE system when they can make you tap again to pay. That's when they get to kick people off the bus or pay again at invalid use of a transfer. They figure with the current system, they won't loose as much money as a time based system. People who take the same route twice don't get a transfer and will automatically charge a second fare, just like showing a paper transfer with the same route. Short turn however causes a huge problem with the current implementation. If they eliminate paper transfer, they'll need emergency presto transfers media.

The paper transfer system actually dates back to the early 1900's. It's been in use over a century now. I don't believe TTC started it but instead passed on to them.

 

[DSC]

A month or so ago, Metrolinx sent someone to talk to the St Lawrence Neighbourhood Association. They followed up with some written answers, here are those connected to PRESTO.

12) Why is there a charge for PRESTO Cards?

The fee charged when you purchase a PRESTO Card is to cover the cost attached to administer the PRESTO System.


13) Is there work being done now to further modernize the PRESTO Card to perhaps do away with the card itself and use a mobile phone instead?

PRESTO is looking at other options right now to assess the logistical framework of other modes of payments.


14) Why does the PRESTO Card have an expiry date?

There is no longer an expiry date on PRESTO Cards but rather a warranty period. The date listed on the back of your PRESTO Card indicates that if your card is damaged within that time period, PRESTO will send you a new one.

 

[crs1026]

With POP, the operator won't and shouldn't sort this out. Let the fare inspector handle it. You tapped, so you are not evading the fare. The system is the problem.

I really hope the TTC gets frustrated with all this complexity and just adopts the 2 hour rule. Recover the underage next time fares are raised. It will encourage more usage, after all.

- Paul

 

[cplchanb]

they really need to improve the sensitivity of the card readers. Im able to easily tap my card inside my wallet on the MTR but its not the case for these readers..Also it would be very beneficial if the readers show the balance left instead of a green checkmark,,...

 

[nfitz]

they really need to improve the sensitivity of the card readers. Im able to easily tap my card inside my wallet on the MTR but its not the case for these readers..Also it would be very beneficial if the readers show the balance left instead of a green checkmark,,...

Surely, we don't want people tapping the cards from inside their wallet, given all the other RFID devices many people carry.

How do you know that it isn't your RFID debit or credit card that it sees first?

The Wikipedia page for the Octopus card (for what little that's worth) notes that "Octopus uses a nonstandard system for RFID instead of the more popular ISO/IEC 14443 standards". Hmm, would that reduce card clash?

 

[cplchanb]

Surely, we don't want people tapping the cards from inside their wallet, given all the other RFID devices many people carry.

How do you know that it isn't your RFID debit or credit card that it sees first?

The Wikipedia page for the Octopus card (for what little that's worth) notes that "Octopus uses a nonstandard system for RFID instead of the more popular ISO/IEC 14443 standards". Hmm, would that reduce card clash?

I see....well...just goes to show that either these small bits of inexperience or naivety really do add up to the overall inconvenience of this particular product. currently its not that bad, but once presto becomes the proprietary form of payment every 5 seconds lost per person during rush hour is going to make things quite congested.

 

[nfitz]

I see....well...just goes to show that either these small bits of inexperience or naivety really do add up to the overall inconvenience of this particular product. currently its not that bad, but once presto becomes the proprietary form of payment every 5 seconds lost per person during rush hour is going to make things quite congested.

Presumably once everyone is doing this all the time, people will figure it out. And hopefully if someone is blocking the line, trying to tap their wallet, or whatever, they'll be heckled by those standing behind them.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Also it would be very beneficial if the readers show the balance left instead of a green checkmark,,...

The TTC does not want to display the balance because they believe that they would have to have an audio ancoc met for those that can't read the text on the screen. That's what their interpretation of the ODA is.

 

[Megaton327]

The TTC does not want to display the balance because they believe that they would have to have an audio ancoc met for those that can't read the text on the screen. That's what their interpretation of the ODA is.

And it's been pointed out to them probably hundreds of times that if GO, UPX, YRT/Viva, MiWay, Oakville, Burlington, Brampton, Durham, Hamilton, and OCTranspo can all show that information but not read it out loud, their reasoning is obviously invalid, but of course they don't care about logic...

 

[Megaton327]

The Minister of Transportation is holding a Press Conference at a Shoppers Drug Mart in Toronto at 1PM on Monday, May 8, 2017: https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2017/05/minister-of-transportation-to-make-announcement-7.html

It is almost definitely a Presto announcement--Metrolinx has recently been talking up a "third party retailer network" for purchasing, managing, and loading Presto cards--with full service, unlike the purchase-only Gateway locations. This would mainly be for TTC customers, as the rest of the region already has good coverage of staffed locations and the TTC proper has only Davisville.

Thanks to @Allandale25 for initially posting this in the GO Construction thread - I think it's most likely the Presto retailer announcement, so I'm posting it here.

 

[amnesiajune]

This would mainly be for TTC customers, as the rest of the region already has good coverage of staffed locations and the TTC proper has only Davisville.

Yes and no. The rest of the region has some coverage - definitely a lot more than the TTC (where, by some logic, you have to pay a fare before you can buy the card you use to pay a fare) - but I wouldn't say that any system other than Go Transit has good coverage. If it is Shoppers, it'll be a great addition since they have locations all over Toronto and the 905.

 

[nfitz]

For the current TTC fare system, they have over 1,200 authorized vendors in the city - https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/Prices/loadFareMediaSellers.action

Presto has less than 150 in the entire province, and that includes about 60 TTC Gateway newstands that only sell cards, and all the agency locations (but not the GO locations).

A quick look at the map on the Presto site (which does include GO locations, but not the TTC Gateway newstands) doesn't show that Toronto has much less places to buy than anywhere else.

Really, there should be a vendor within walking distance - at least for a book of paper Presto tickets.