Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[drum118]

Siemens complain about sole sourcing those backup vehicles:

https://twitter.com/benspurr/status/882401827869917184

Given their backlog, they aren't in a position to complain since they wouldn't meet delivery time in the first place.

Even if they were to bid and won the bid, which system(S) is going to get screw for late delivery since most of the current orders are to be completed about the same time?? They are currently producing a car a week or less, with 500+ on order. Since no US system is getting 30m plus cars, thats a big jump up for production room.

The Star
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...-contract-broke-the-rules-company-claims.html

 

[Steve X]

Why are they complaining now? They once said if there's an opportunity for vehicles on the Finch West LRT, they'll jump on it. Why didn't they complain two months ago when ML announced the contract?

Siemens overbid in the original contract by 150% of BBD's price and didn't get the contract. What would make a difference today? They still have to do the same stuff as before. Siemens also don't have a proven low floor product here. Those new C-trains had quiet a few teething issues and had been pulled from service a few times. They have door issues too. Drum118 is probably right, they be deliver these cars late too. At that point, they'll hope the BBD + Siemens car mix fleet would add up to 76 if they ever got the contract. Siemens is behind Alstom as they don't have a working prototype. They might not be able to get a working train on the line for testing till late 2019/early 2020 leaving them a year to rush in 76 cars.

 

[TOareaFan]

Given their backlog, they aren't in a position to complain since they wouldn't meet delivery time in the first place.

Even if they were to bid and won the bid, which system(S) is going to get screw for late delivery since most of the current orders are to be completed about the same time?? They are currently producing a car a week or less, with 500+ on order. Since no US system is getting 30m plus cars, thats a big jump up for production room.

The Star
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...-contract-broke-the-rules-company-claims.html

Why are they complaining now? They once said if there's an opportunity for vehicles on the Finch West LRT, they'll jump on it. Why didn't they complain two months ago when ML announced the contract?

Siemens overbid in the original contract by 150% of BBD's price and didn't get the contract. What would make a difference today? They still have to do the same stuff as before. Siemens also don't have a proven low floor product here. Those new C-trains had quiet a few teething issues and had been pulled from service a few times. They have door issues too. Drum118 is probably right, they be deliver these cars late too. At that point, they'll hope the BBD + Siemens car mix fleet would add up to 76 if they ever got the contract. Siemens is behind Alstom as they don't have a working prototype. They might not be able to get a working train on the line for testing till late 2019/early 2020 leaving them a year to rush in 76 cars.

Then Alstom would win on an open bid process. Do the rules allow for presupposing the results and just skipping the whole bid?

 

[smallspy]

Why are they complaining now? They once said if there's an opportunity for vehicles on the Finch West LRT, they'll jump on it. Why didn't they complain two months ago when ML announced the contract?

Did you not read the article? They did complain then. May 24th in fact, less than 2 weeks after Metrolinx announced the awarding of the contract.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[cplchanb]

Did you not read the article? They did complain then. May 24th in fact, less than 2 weeks after Metrolinx announced the awarding of the contract.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Does Siemens have the legal precedence to file a court injunction for this or is this one of the cry over spilt milk cases and ML saying "ack, move on" type of thing?

 

[muller877]

Why are they complaining now? They once said if there's an opportunity for vehicles on the Finch West LRT, they'll jump on it. Why didn't they complain two months ago when ML announced the contract?

Siemens overbid in the original contract by 150% of BBD's price and didn't get the contract. What would make a difference today? They still have to do the same stuff as before. Siemens also don't have a proven low floor product here. Those new C-trains had quiet a few teething issues and had been pulled from service a few times. They have door issues too. Drum118 is probably right, they be deliver these cars late too. At that point, they'll hope the BBD + Siemens car mix fleet would add up to 76 if they ever got the contract. Siemens is behind Alstom as they don't have a working prototype. They might not be able to get a working train on the line for testing till late 2019/early 2020 leaving them a year to rush in 76 cars.

For the 2 month delay....I expect they tried to discuss without the use of media to come to a compromise for the 2 months. And they only went public when Ontario refused to find a solution.

A normal company will go back to the next 2 bidders for a project and let them both propose a solution. It is astonishing that the province did not at least discuss it with them. A sole sourced deal always smells and this one is getting fishier by the day.

I wonder if the CETA coming into effect on July 1 (certain rules only) created the desire to conclude the contract early.

 

[muller877]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/lrt-vehicle-two-delayed-delivery-1.4169068

Here is a great article on the ion trains that I must have missed. Gives a understanding of the back and forth between the manufacturer and operator before the vehicle is complete. And the fact that ion has to do a few things before the vehicle is ready and they are the ones delaying the delivery of the second vehicle.

Only if we could trust Metrolinx to be as forthright as this

 

[Megaton327]

And the fact that ion has to do a few things before the vehicle is ready and they are the ones delaying the delivery of the second vehicle.

That is an extremely disingenuous way to present the situation. That article says:

As a result, the region is delaying preliminary acceptance of the vehicles, because they are "not yet at the desired level of functionality," according to the memo. The trains still need modifications to the "braking system, propulsion, and the train control and management system."

ION is delaying acceptance because Bombardier has failed to produce working vehicles. It is more accurate to say that Bombardier is late in producing working vehicles, than to say Ion is delaying acceptance of nonfunctional/broken ones.

 

[rbt]

ION is delaying acceptance because Bombardier has failed to produce working vehicles. It is more accurate to say that Bombardier is late in producing working vehicles, than to say Ion is delaying acceptance of nonfunctional/broken ones.

Well kinda. Some of the things BBD needs to install to produce a fully working vehicle haven't yet been fully designed by Grandlinq (train control system). In fact, that's the first paragraph.

 

[drum118]

Well kinda. Some of the things BBD needs to install to produce a fully working vehicle haven't yet been fully designed by Grandlinq (train control system). In fact, that's the first paragraph.

I have to be real stupid, but its BBD responsibility to design how the cars will operate, while Grandling design the control system how the cars will operate on the line. As far as I known and seen, the control system by Gardling is done and ready for use since part of it was working months ago.

I have yet to hear of any systems designing the control system of a car they have order. They will spec certain things, but up to the builder to design how the car will move.

At this point, the 501 still hasn't moved under its own power since it was delivery in April, considering it was supposed to be testing now on the line.

Basely you are saying anyone buying a car from Ford, GM or who every must design the operating system before the car is built and that is not true.

 

[crs1026]

I'm equally surprised that Bombardier isn't required to deliver a car capable of moving under some sort of 'manual override' mode..... in effect, functionally equivalent to a TTC car. I'm assuming that Grandlinq provides a traffic control system similar to PTC or the TTC's new Line 1 ACS to permit automated operation with the operator just telling it 'Go, Stop' or whatever. Is that actually integrated into the car's basic OS? As opposed to being an add-on app?

It's hard to say that the vendor has delivered my new computer when Microsoft is still writing the Code for Windows 12 and therefore no OS has been loaded into the machine.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

I have to be real stupid, but its BBD responsibility to design how the cars will operate, while Grandling design the control system how the cars will operate on the line. As far as I known and seen, the control system by Gardling is done and ready for use since part of it was working months ago.

I couldn't tell you how it works as far as division of responsibilities as I've not read their contract. We just know that the purchaser of the product in this case is saying "oops, we're slow on getting something to the manufacturer, and delivery is delayed due to it" in a public setting.

It's not uncommon on a complex project to leave hand-wavy statements in contracts indicating appendices with detail for topic X will be added at a later date.

It just seems like a stretch to blame BBD for the delay when the purchaser blames themselves. BBD has plenty of things that are their fault; don't need to make stuff up for them to look bad.

 

[Megaton327]

I'm equally surprised that Bombardier isn't required to deliver a car capable of moving under some sort of 'manual override' mode..... in effect, functionally equivalent to a TTC car. I'm assuming that Grandlinq provides a traffic control system similar to PTC or the TTC's new Line 1 ACS to permit automated operation with the operator just telling it 'Go, Stop' or whatever. Is that actually integrated into the car's basic OS? As opposed to being an add-on app?

It's hard to say that the vendor has delivered my new computer when Microsoft is still writing the Code for Windows 12 and therefore no OS has been loaded into the machine.

- Paul

Aren't the vehicles manually driven when running alongside traffic? I thought only the completely separate ROW portions would run automatically, and for safety the operator would still be in full control when on street in urban areas.

 

[crs1026]

Aren't the vehicles manually driven when running alongside traffic? I thought only the completely separate ROW portions would run automatically, and for safety the operator would still be in full control when on street in urban areas.

I assume so, yes. Which is what is puzzling - why aren't the cars testable in manual mode before the code for the control system is available?

- Paul

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I have to be real stupid, but its BBD responsibility to design how the cars will operate, while Grandling design the control system how the cars will operate on the line. As far as I known and seen, the control system by Gardling is done and ready for use since part of it was working months ago.

I wonder if part of the delays now to Ion are because they figured Metrolinx would have been testing them by now and they would be using whatever operating software that they had installed and now that metrolinx doesn't have anything other then the Eglinton Crosstown line under construction.