Mayor Miller wins award!

[BlueBehemoth]

BlueBehemoth,
More people from Toronto work in the 905 than vice versa. As the quote from the report says. Since the time of the report, the disparity has increased. In fact, the job growth that occurred in the 905 region was to such a degree that its population growth could not support it..

I didn't disagree with you on that point Glen,

- As of the time of the writing of that report (Oct, 2005) there were more jobs in total in the 905 area than there are in the City of Toronto. (Since the 905 is a much larger physical area than the City of Toronto that would be logical.)

The report is not about companies leaving the GTA. It is about within the GTA, Toronto is not competitive. It has been at best stagnant while surrounded by a booming area.

Sorry, I have a tendency to use the term "GTA" when I really should be saying "Metro Toronto" or "City of Toronto". After all, I can remember when Mel Lastman was Mayor of North York.

Of course, Toronto is not competitive -- it's because of the Commercial & Industrial Property and Business Taxes.

Again this is not reflective of reality. As above, this is not about the GTA as a homogeneous tax climate. This is about the GTA as a heterogeneous one. Toronto's non residential taxes are far to high while residential taxes are too low. Businesses have left or ignored the Toronto part of the GTA but not the GTA itself. Despite higher residential taxes the 905 has flourished, while Toronto has not.

I agree with you about the 905 having flourished while Toronto has not, and I agree with you that the City's Commercial & Industrial taxes are too high; I do not agree with you over your statement that "Toronto's residential taxes are too low."

I believe that our residential taxes are too high in some districts, but not in all districts, many of them are about where I think they should be. I definitely firmly believe that the City of Toronto's stated spending per household and per person is completely outrageous when it is compared to the surrounding Municipalities. I believe the answer is not to increase residential taxes but to curtail the City's spending and bring it back in line with the surrounding municipalities.

If your idea to raise residential taxes in the City of Toronto goes into effect, the result will be that all of those people who still live in the City but work in the 905 will simply move out of the city and into the 905 to take advantage of the lower residential taxes and the shorter commute to work. The flow of Businesses leaving Toronto for the cheaper taxes in the 905 and elsewhere will not abate until the City reigns in its spending.

Your plan appears to be to turn the City of Toronto into another mid-1980's Detroit with everyone getting the heck out of here because of the way the place is being run.

You're beginning to sound as if you work for the tax department down at City Hall or one of the Councillors who are backing Miller's "I want more money and I'm going to fleece the residents for it" agenda.

If he needs more money he should be going after the Province for it. And if he wants to gain credibility and keep support from the voters then he needs to prove to us that he is managing the City's budget in a fiscally responsible manner. Right now his support appears to be eroding somewhat - if he raises residential taxes and brings in all those municipal surtaxes he wants then he will lose voter support in a very big way and the stream of people & businesses to the 905 and elswhere will become a flood.

 

[Glen]

I do not agree with you over your statement that "Toronto's residential taxes are too low."

I believe that our residential taxes are too high in some districts, but not in all districts, many of them are about where I think they should be. I definitely firmly believe that the City of Toronto's stated spending per household and per person is completely outrageous when it is compared to the surrounding Municipalities. I believe the answer is not to increase residential taxes but to curtail the City's spending and bring it back in line with the surrounding municipalities.

There are two separate issues at play here. What Toronto spends and the way in which different classes are proportioned their share.

If your idea to raise residential taxes in the City of Toronto goes into effect, the result will be that all of those people who still live in the City but work in the 905 will simply move out of the city and into the 905 to take advantage of the lower residential taxes and the shorter commute to work. The flow of Businesses leaving Toronto for the cheaper taxes in the 905 and elsewhere will not abate until the City reigns in its spending.

I never suggested that Toronto raises it taxes to be higher than the 905 area. What I suggested is that Toronto re-balance the distribution of taxes to what they should be.

Your plan appears to be to turn the City of Toronto into another mid-1980's Detroit with everyone getting the heck out of here because of the way the place is being run.

You're beginning to sound as if you work for the tax department down at City Hall or one of the Councillors who are backing Miller's "I want more money and I'm going to fleece the residents for it" agenda.

If he needs more money he should be going after the Province for it. And if he wants to gain credibility and keep support from the voters then he needs to prove to us that he is managing the City's budget in a fiscally responsible manner. Right now his support appears to be eroding somewhat - if he raises residential taxes and brings in all those municipal surtaxes he wants then he will lose voter support in a very big way and the stream of people & businesses to the 905 and elswhere will become a flood.

Your point above illustrates exactly what the current climate has done. It has created a near complete disconnect between what taxes are and the true spending potential they represent. As much as I feel the city could be doing a better job spending money, I do not believe that the level of inefficient spending approaches levels that would allow for residential taxes not to rise. You yourself have seen the figures. The city cannot collect an average of $2200 per household and spend $8400. If the city were to adhere to O. Reg. 386/98 I calculate that taxes for the residential sector would have to raise approx 30% - 40%. There are just no amounts of cost cutting that could offset that.

We all want 'something for nothing', but as the exodus of Toronto business and jobs has shown, those who get 'nothing for something' don't stick around to pay for it.

 

[Glen]

To add some perspective on the growth of city spending the CFIB has a nice graph that shows from 1998 to 2008 the city's population grew by 10%. Inflation for the period was 22% and spending increased 46%.

Page 3 here

 

[BlueBehemoth]

.. Your point above illustrates exactly what the current climate has done. It has created a near complete disconnect between what taxes are and the true spending potential they represent. As much as I feel the city could be doing a better job spending money, I do not believe that the level of inefficient spending approaches levels that would allow for residential taxes not to rise. You yourself have seen the figures. The city cannot collect an average of $2200 per household and spend $8400. If the city were to adhere to O. Reg. 386/98 I calculate that taxes for the residential sector would have to raise approx 30% - 40%. There are just no amounts of cost cutting that could offset that. ..

The City should not be spending $8400. per household.

The City should not be trying to justify spending $8400. per household.

Regardless of what you have to say on this matter that figure is completely outrageous when compared to the surrounding municipalities.

Several things have got to be rotten at City Hall - the contract with the Municipal Employees Union, the contracts that the City has signed for outsourcing, the money the City gives away to the people who come looking for funding to support whatever their own special interest group might be (some are worthwhile because they benefit the City, others very likely are not), the City's spending in general but particularly, I suspect, the downloading of costs onto the City for all those things that the Province used to pay for. Toronto has more than its share of people with their hands out and if the City can't afford them then we can't afford them.

We're getting into a circular argument here Glen. You keep trying to justify Miller's position which I consider to be nothing more than making excuses for him and trying to justify his agenda of raising residential taxes to the point where people who don't earn more than $60K per year will not be able to afford to continue living South of Steeles Avenue.

If Miller does not reign in the City's spending, cut out the dead wood and get the money from the Province to pay for all the things they have downloaded onto this Municipality and instead trys to fleece the residents he will turn this City into a wasteland.

And where do you get the idea that the City is only collecting $2200 per household? I can assure you my Municipal property taxes are higher than that and I have a very modest home in a reasonable tax rate area. Everyone I know pays more than I do. You are NOT going to convince me that you are right and I have better things to do than put up with your rhetoric on this subject. There is nothing that you or Miller can say to me to justify a claim of spending, on average, 280% more money per household than 12 of the surrounding Municipalities.

 

[BlueBehemoth]

To add some perspective on the growth of city spending the CFIB has a nice graph that shows from 1998 to 2008 the city's population grew by 10%. Inflation for the period was 22% and spending increased 46%.

Page 3 here

Spending has increased by 46% since 1998. I note from that chart you so helpfully provided the link to that the Gross Expenditure line went from matching the inflation line prior 2004 to vastly exceeding it therafter.

Wait a sec - David Miller was elected Mayor in 2003. So, prior to his taking the helm, City of Toronto expenditures matched the inflation rate and immediately after he took charge and continuing to this day, gross expenditures greatly exceed the inflation rate. Could it be that we've identified the source of the problem?

You know Glen - the more we go over this the more evidence is presented to cement my dislike and distrust of David Miller.

 

[Glen]

We're getting into a circular argument here Glen. You keep trying to justify Miller's position which I consider to be nothing more than making excuses for him and trying to justify his agenda of raising residential taxes to the point where people who don't earn more than $60K per year will not be able to afford to continue living South of Steeles Avenue.

I keep making the same point over and over again. Taxes are more north of Steeles, not less. So where are tax weary Torontonians going to go. Unless they are going to leave the province the only other area with a comparable tax climate is Milton. The point that you seem to be missing is that for the city to proportion taxes based on levels of service would mean that to maintain the average residential tax rate would require massive cuts in services. I am talking about more than 60%. That is unreasonable. Personally I think that this a result of hiding the true cost of running the city from residents. They are so used to shopping at a 75% discount that they are unprepared to pay full price.

That does not mean Toronto could be more prudent. Of course it could. My estimations is that the city could reduce spending by 20% with little effect. More than that thought would be difficult without major cuts in service.

And where do you get the idea that the City is only collecting $2200 per household? I can assure you my Municipal property taxes are higher than that and I have a very modest home in a reasonable tax rate area. Everyone I know pays more than I do. You are NOT going to convince me that you are right and I have better things to do than put up with your rhetoric on this subject. There is nothing that you or Miller can say to me to justify a claim of spending, on average, 280% more money per household than 12 of the surrounding Municipalities.

The $2,200 is in numerous city documents. Here is the latest. It shows an average of $2,240. NB the average assessments are still based on the 2004 MPAC figures, released in 2006.