Kitchener-Hamilton Rail Connection

[jaborandi]

All of it is still operational. Guelph to Guelph Junction is owned by the City of Guelph, and Guelph Jct to Hamilton and beyond to Welland is the CP Rail Hamilton Subdivision. The above proposal uses those rails.

I only asked because dunkalunk seemed to be concerned by the challenges of the escarpment. I'm uncertain if his green line from Aldershot follows an existing line or whether it could be modified to join the existing Hamilton to Waterdown line. I grew up quite close to the Hamilton to Waterdown line just below Clappison's Cut. There were several passenger trains each day. I recall, as a wee one in the early 50's, the grown-ups talking about the problems with the bums down by the tracks. I was intrigued. I thought bums looked like turtles except instead of shells they had little pink bums with little pink legs. I ventured down there the next day hoping to catch a family of "bums" in all sizes strolling along the tracks. I was in for a huge disappointment!

 

[dunkalunk]

To Clarify:
-Blue lines are existing lines
-Green Lines are entirely new corridors
-The Red Line is a modified and straightened out Guelph Junction Railway
-Black Lines are other existing corridors

While the existing route through waterdown (black line) could be used for interim service, but the geometry of the bayview junction would prohohibit it from stopping at aldershot, thus creating an unnecessary detour at downtown Hamilton to those heading to places between Aldershot and Mimico.

I also decided on a new corridor through this area as a provision for an electrified high speed line. the current CP alignment would be expensive to double and would be impossible to straighten out for even 150km/h service.

I also do see a market for an express rail connection between Kitchener and Cambridge, but I feel this could be acheived as an extension of the proposed light rail system. The stop spacing between Ottawa Street and Preston is already fairly wide, and largely paralells the rail corridor.

The reason for a new corridor at Guelph is for simmilar reasons. The Guelph Juntion Railway and GEXR Guelph Junction railway to not actually connet in Downtown Guelph; the north mainline overpasses it when it crosses the Grand River. To build a new rail overpass to make a direct connection at this point would be a bit nuts in a built up area, and would still not have a shallow enough curve for high speed service.

 

[royalrivers]

To Clarify:
-Blue lines are existing lines
-Green Lines are entirely new corridors
-The Red Line is a modified and straightened out Guelph Junction Railway
-Black Lines are other existing corridors

While the existing route through waterdown (black line) could be used for interim service, but the geometry of the bayview junction would prohohibit it from stopping at aldershot, thus creating an unnecessary detour at downtown Hamilton to those heading to places between Aldershot and Mimico.

I also decided on a new corridor through this area as a provision for an electrified high speed line. the current CP alignment would be expensive to double and would be impossible to straighten out for even 150km/h service.

I also do see a market for an express rail connection between Kitchener and Cambridge, but I feel this could be acheived as an extension of the proposed light rail system. The stop spacing between Ottawa Street and Preston is already fairly wide, and largely paralells the rail corridor.

The reason for a new corridor at Guelph is for simmilar reasons. The Guelph Juntion Railway and GEXR Guelph Junction railway to not actually connet in Downtown Guelph; the north mainline overpasses it when it crosses the Grand River. To build a new rail overpass to make a direct connection at this point would be a bit nuts in a built up area, and would still not have a shallow enough curve for high speed service.

I wish this would happen. Too bad the tracks to Owen Sound are torn up.

 

[dunkalunk]

Wow, this is a blast from the past!

I should mention, that since posting this almost 4 years go, I've come to realize that something like this won't happen until the slow section of track through Guelph has been grade separated and there is full electrified service on both the Lakeshore and Kitchener Lines. I'd expect this to take at least 20 years (although even that is optimistic)

But before anything can happen, GO needs to start running a route between Kitchener and Aldershot via Highway 6 so that the demand for this line exists. This is something that could easily be done within the next 2 years.

Given CP's hostility to any use of their track, it may be more feasible to follow the alignment of the Grade-Separated Highway 6.

 

[smallspy]

There are a number of lines in the Toronto area where it simply is not feasible to run a GO-style rail service.

This is one of them.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[dunkalunk]

If by GO-style rail service you mean peak commuter service to Union Station, I'd have to agree with you. There is still potential for a Highway 6 bi-directional GO Bus.

 

[royalrivers]

If by GO-style rail service you mean peak commuter service to Union Station, I'd have to agree with you. There is still potential for a Highway 6 bi-directional GO Bus.

I agree a GO Bus should at least run from Guelph and maybe Cambridge/Kitchener into Aldershot GO (to appease Coach Canada/Abouttown regarding competition) and allows people to travel East to Toronto via GO or west to Hamilton/Niagara via GO/VIA Rail.

In terms of the tracks, yes the current GO fleet may not be feasible for these tracks, however, there was train service before a long time ago and maybe it just has to be single level train, 3 or 4 cars long.

 

[nfitz]

I agree a GO Bus should at least run from Guelph and maybe Cambridge/Kitchener into Aldershot GO (to appease Coach Canada/Abouttown regarding competition) and allows people to travel East to Toronto via GO or west to Hamilton/Niagara via GO/VIA Rail.

Why not simply use the existing private bus services, which connect to the GO terminals at both McMaster and Hamilton. Surely creating competition for one of the few private routes in the region isn't the best use of public funds.

Though at the rate that Abbouttown is cancelling services, then perhaps some kind of Guelph to Hamilton service will be in order ...

Coach Canada still has an impressive Kitchener to Hamilton schedule ... doesn't look too different than it used to back the 1980s when I used to take it occasionally.

 

[dunkalunk]

Why not simply use the existing private bus services, which connect to the GO terminals at both McMaster and Hamilton. Surely creating competition for one of the few private routes in the region isn't the best use of public funds.

No one makes that connection since the connection makes no sense either time-wise or money-wise. If you're going somewhere in Hamilton, you'd be transferring to HSR. If you are going anywhere else, it would make more sense to stay on GO and transfer at Square One.

Because it is more expensive to get to Hamilton ($16.70) than it is to get to Toronto on GO or Greyhound. If you want to spend to 2.5 hours on a bus, that same Kitchener-Hamilton trip will cost you $14.95 ($13.63 on Presto). From a network connectivity standpoint, a connection along Highway 6 to Aldershot makes a lot of sense. GO should do it because they can do it better, and they will draw more ridership from being part of a larger integrated network.

Is there any legal basis against GO encroaching on their route monopoly?

 

[smallspy]

No, by "GO-style rail service", I am referring to any rail service whatsoever. The line is far too curvy and the terrain too hilly to ever be of any consequence for passenger service. It can't be straightened out.

A bus service on Highway 6 is a much more reasonable proposition, although as noted above there is the small issue with the current services on that corridor.

...however, there was train service before a long time ago and maybe it just has to be single level train, 3 or 4 cars long.

The only train that I'm aware of using that line was a Hamilton-points-north mixed train that would have ended in the 1940s.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[nfitz]

No one makes that connection since the connection makes no sense either time-wise or money-wise. If you're going somewhere in Hamilton, you'd be transferring to HSR. If you are going anywhere else, it would make more sense to stay on GO and transfer at Square One.

Ah ... so your suggesting that buses from Guelph and Kitchener interesect the Lakeshore line at Aldershot to serve Toronto. I assume you were trying to serve Hamilton/Burlington/Oakville.

In the long term, wouldn't it make more sense to bus to Mount Pleasant station on the Kitchener line (the terminus of GO's proposed full-day service).

Kitchener to Aldershot is about 60 km, 45 minutes. It's only about 75 km and 50 minutes to Mount Pleasant GO station, on the Kitchener line. Guelph to Mount Pleasant is virtually the same distance as to Aldershot. However Aldershot is about 65 minutes from Union compared to less than 55 minutes to Mount Pleasant.

Ultimately this would allow for a more consistent service for those in Kitchener travelling to other stops along the Kitchener line, such as Brampton. And in the long-term, would allow for some off-peak trains to extend further towards Kitchener.

 

[dunkalunk]

Ah ... so your suggesting that buses from Guelph and Kitchener interesect the Lakeshore line at Aldershot to serve Toronto. I assume you were trying to serve Hamilton/Burlington/Oakville.

In the long term, wouldn't it make more sense to bus to Mount Pleasant station on the Kitchener line (the terminus of GO's proposed full-day service).

Kitchener to Aldershot is about 60 km, 45 minutes. It's only about 75 km and 50 minutes to Mount Pleasant GO station, on the Kitchener line. Guelph to Mount Pleasant is virtually the same distance as to Aldershot. However Aldershot is about 65 minutes from Union compared to less than 55 minutes to Mount Pleasant.

Ultimately this would allow for a more consistent service for those in Kitchener travelling to other stops along the Kitchener line, such as Brampton. And in the long-term, would allow for some off-peak trains to extend further towards Kitchener.

Kitchener Charles St Terminal to Aldershot GO is 49km (50 minutes)
Kitchener Charles St Terminal to Mount Pleasant GO is 79km (54 minutes)
Kitchener Charles St Terminal to Bramalea GO is 81km (51 minutes)

The above times are point to point travel road travel times and do not account for traffic or additional stops. Of these, Mount Pleasant would be the most sensitive to delays. I also expect the travel times on Highway 6 South of the 401 to become much quicker once the Morriston Bypass is constructed.

The current Kitchener Line Train-Bus intersects the line at Bramalea GO and as far as an interchange location it makes a lot of sense given that travel along the 407 is quick and it provides a connection to the 407 Bus Corridor. If my final destination is downtown Brampton, I wouldn't particularly mind transferring if it meant I'd spend less time stuck in traffic.

Similarly, I would think there is demand on the Lakeshore West line for GO to be running express trains into Union. I understand that VIA may have issues with this, but if they do (and they will), they can use it as an excuse to drop Oakville from their network. VIA rail really can't compete at distances of less than 150km because the cost of a ticket is double or triple what a GO fare would be.

 

[nfitz]

Kitchener Charles St Terminal to Aldershot GO is 49km (50 minutes)
Kitchener Charles St Terminal to Mount Pleasant GO is 79km (54 minutes)
Kitchener Charles St Terminal to Bramalea GO is 81km (51 minutes)

Ah, very good. Service should go to Bramalea then! That would give a significantly faster trip from KW to Union, compared to Union.

Similarly, I would think there is demand on the Lakeshore West line for GO to be running express trains into Union. I understand that VIA may have issues with this, but if they do (and they will), they can use it as an excuse to drop Oakville from their network. VIA rail really can't compete at distances of less than 150km because the cost of a ticket is double or triple what a GO fare would be.

Surely, VIA services Oakville, to transport people on the west side of the GTA to points west. Not to provide service from Oakville to Union. In days of old, they used to not even allow travel between Union and these suburban stations.

 

[TOareaFan]

Ah, very good. Service should go to Bramalea then! That would give a significantly faster trip from KW to Union, compared to Union.

Surely, VIA services Oakville, to transport people on the west side of the GTA to points west. Not to provide service from Oakville to Union. In days of old, they used to not even allow travel between Union and these suburban stations.

A lot of people in our company and our industry live in Oakville.....given the amount of GO train service they get, the only VIA service I hear them talk about is that they love being able to get on a train in their own town and go to Montreal without changing trains.

 

[mpd618]

Is there any legal basis against GO encroaching on their route monopoly?

No, there isn't. GO Transit can technically run any service it likes without any approval from the Ontario Highway Transport Board. In practice, there is some deference paid. I've yet to see any information on what the behind-the-scenes calculus of the OHTB is, and how Metrolinx fits into that.

Why not simply use the existing private bus services, which connect to the GO terminals at both McMaster and Hamilton. Surely creating competition for one of the few private routes in the region isn't the best use of public funds.

Ah ... so your suggesting that buses from Guelph and Kitchener interesect the Lakeshore line at Aldershot to serve Toronto. I assume you were trying to serve Hamilton/Burlington/Oakville.

In the long term, wouldn't it make more sense to bus to Mount Pleasant station on the Kitchener line (the terminus of GO's proposed full-day service).

To my mind, these are three very different services. Kitchener to Hamilton is a service that exists with private operation. Kitchener to Union train-bus service should absolutely exist (more than the 3 runs a day currently), and probably would if GO were not timid in treading on OHTB-allocated territory.

Finally, Kitchener to Aldershot via Highway 6 is a completely different animal. I see its purpose as connecting to the every-30-minute rail service along the Lakeshore line, with the primary aim of getting to stations other than Union. It would just really open up the possibility of some commutes and many intercity trips by transit.

Actually, Burlington might make even more sense as the connection, as it would be a destination in its own right.