Is University Really Worth it?

[golodhendil]

I think something important about this "worthiness of university" discussion is that people have to realize university is not a be-all-end-all for everyone. This is especially true for many people in the sciences, esp. life sciences, including a lot of my friends. (I have less experience with the humanities so I can't comment as much on that)

Granted, a lot of the people who go into university majoring in life sciences have the professional schools in sight (med, dental, pharm, optom, nursing, all for which a life sci undergrad really isn't necessary and is probably making things more difficult for themselves), though of course the percentage of them that do end up getting into those programs is vanishingly small. While I am of the belief that the goal of a university education is to learn to be a critically-thinking "better" person and not employment preparation (direct job prep would require a college or professional program, or a "professional" undergrad degree), ultimately the one thing that a bachelor's degree in science "prepares" you for is graduate studies in science, from which one can then branch out to academia, industry, science journalism or science-related finance, etc. Without further training, a science degree is not "useful" for anything in particular (the one major exception is lab technician, which BSc can do; but many techs end up furthering their studies with graduate school anyway). And herein lies the big problem. Few of those people who intend to go into professional schools actually enjoy or care about science, so when their initial goal failed, they are unwillingly to pursue graduate school as a "backup" (not that grad schools are easy to get into anyway), and they are also unwilling to tech because they hated science to begin with. So, they end up with a degree on something they couldn't care less about and probably learned little from, and is not particularly useful without further specialization but which the most obvious specializations are in things that they hate. So they end up in a situation where they feel they "wasted" four years without significantly improving their employment odds. I think ultimately it's important for people to realize what a university education, especially one in the sciences, is truly about.

 

[jade_lee]

A good liberal education does more than assist in a job search. It's practical application sometimes is not realized by individuals but that says more about the individual than the reality of the benefits one encounters by dedicating oneself to higher learning. I have a BSc majoring in the life sciences from the University of Toronto. Did I think this degree would open employer's doors for me? Of course I did.
I started university in the early 80's. I had a rude awaking when I graduated but it all worked out in the end and upon reflection that degree and that education was well worth it!

 

[Admiral Beez]

More and more recent graduates are having a rough time finding jobs, with just a undergrad degree.

This old thread got me thinking. My daughters are both doing their BA undergrads at Ontario universities. I pushed them to pursue stem degrees, but it wasn’t to be. My expectation is that an undergrad degree is not sufficient for them to find good jobs and start careers. I tell them they’ll need to have in-demand, yet difficult to attain certifications, qualifications and skill sets. We’ve told them both the money and support is there to cover postgraduate degrees or other certificates, but they must present us with a plan that leads to marketable skills and in-demand qualifications. They’re only entering third year, so I’ll report back in five years.

 

[Towered]

Today's "diploma mills" are essentially scams for any non-stem programs. Society convinces our young people that they MUST sacrifice 5+ years in post secondary institutions going several dozen grand (or more) into debt to attain THE DEGREE, only to face the harsh reality of low demand for such in the workforce. These degrees are often not worth the paper they're printed on because they've become so common. There's either low demand, or even for those in high demand, there aren't enough positions available (ie teachers) and the competition is fierce. I was talking to one of my work colleagues last week (we work for a biotech firm downtown), and he said he's been casually shopping around for jobs online, and the few science related jobs he's been seeing in the GTA often start at 30 K. 30 K!!!! In a STEM field! Utterly brutal. How is anyone supposed to live a comfortable lifestyle with such a joke of a wage? He even said he'd rather just take a brainless McJob for that kind of pay instead. It's insane what's happening in this province in recent years - the quality of life is consistently declining, and I'm very surprised that people aren't more outraged about it, but then again Canadians tend to be a very docile bunch.

The smart money is in trades these days. I'm even considering a complete career change in that direction myself.

 

[Northern Light]

This old thread got me thinking. My daughters are both doing their BA undergrads at Ontario universities. I pushed them to pursue stem degrees, but it wasn’t to be. My expectation is that an undergrad degree is not sufficient for them to find good jobs and start careers. I tell them they’ll need to have in-demand, yet difficult to attain certifications, qualifications and skill sets. We’ve told them both the money and support is there to cover postgraduate degrees or other certificates, but they must present us with a plan that leads to marketable skills and in-demand qualifications. They’re only entering third year, so I’ll report back in five years.

Suggestion, have them both talk to the University's post-graduation employment assistance people, most Uni's have that today, but people wait til after they graduate, when they're not in a rush and can wait for an appt, a discussion there can be insightful on what's in demand, and what you need to do for it.

Second suggestion, if they're broadly interested in certain fields, cold call an employer in the field and ask what types of jobs are on offer or likely to be, and what would be required. This can also be done by email, but if you get somone on the phone, it can be more profitable sometimes.

I'd also pitch if they can get a tour, of a workplace or something like that; its a great way to build connections, and put a name to face if nothing else.

I got into a couple of C-suites when I was only in HS by simply calling their community relations people and saying I wanted to write a piece on their company for school, and could I interview a senior executive. I got a tour, a business card, a few handshakes. Can't hurt.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The smart money is in trades these days. I'm even considering a complete career change in that direction myself.

One daughter loves and volunteers in live theatre set design. I’ve mentioned she should look at a carpentry or similar program once she’s done her BA. She can always use the BA as a future springboard to postgraduate school and a profession in her field. It’s the best of both worlds.

I also want them both to enjoy this adventurous time of their lIves. Both have UK citizenship and passports through me, so I’ve encourage them to look at postgraduate schools in Britain. My family would keep an eye on them too. We plan to take at least the theatre fan to London’s West End next year to see some shows. In Jan 2023 we took them both to Manhattan to see Hadestown and Six and the one kid said she wants to live the urban, theatre life. In March/April 2022 my wife and I saw the Play That Goes Wrong in London - I could live the life too. Let’s see where this ends up.

As for 52 y/o myself, not caring about work advancement though education, I’ve been thinking of taking my MA in https://www.port.ac.uk/study/courses/postgraduate-taught/ma-naval-history

 

[lenaitch]

One daughter loves and volunteers in live theatre set design. I’ve mentioned she should look at a carpentry or similar program once she’s done her BA. She can always use the BA as a future springboard to postgraduate school and a profession in her field. It’s the best of both worlds.

One of the downsides of being in one of the so-called 'culture industries' is that very few make a decent living and much of the income is piece work. A friend's son was into the music industry and got a sound engineering college certificate. With that, he had to live near the entertainment district picking up 'board time' as he could. He finally gave up, got his electrician's ticket and now has his own business out west.

I have also been told that set 'trades' such as carpentry, electrical, etc. are completely different because everything they do is very temporary. It does not need to follow Codes.

I would think it would be better to be a carpenter in the actual building trades and then still do volunteer theatre work.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I would think it would be better to be a carpenter in the actual building trades and then still do volunteer theatre work.

Better for you, perhaps. But that’s not her interest. I believe her plan is to attain a postgraduate professional designation and pursue a role in the theatre ops as a side gig or hobby.

 

[afransen]

I do not envy today's graduates. AI is going to make many white collar fields difficult to enter, as much of the routine, entry level work is amenable to automation. As someone who has a number of accountants in their family, I worry about how much that field can be automated (at least at lower levels) and increased in productivity. It is possible that the decrease in cost of these services will increase demand to absorb the increase in productivity (companies may wish to measure and report things they don't today due to lack of resources, etc.), but I am dubious it will be enough. My job, coming from a STEM background, has evolved into replacing people with capital and there is no end of work there. My company has a 20 year pipeline of projects to deliver, at the current rate of capital deployment. But there too, I can see the entry level people we hire being largely replaceable with improved automation tools as they largely exist to enable specialists with routine tasks. How we develop new specialists is concerning to me.

 

[christiesplits]

I graduated with a social sciences degree that was pretty useless on paper. Still, I learned about a critical thinking, and polished my middling writing skills.

The main reason I ended up with a job was through volunteering and short stints in continuing education.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I graduated with a social sciences degree that was pretty useless on paper. Still, I learned about a critical thinking, and polished my middling writing skills.

The main reason I ended up with a job was through volunteering and short stints in continuing education.

My degree a BA in PolySci with an international relations minor. After that I took a one year post-grad course in international biz at George Brown. The BA was not necessary for me to do my first job of international confectionary salesguy, traveling the world selling candy and tooth decay, but there's no way I would have gotten an interview without the BA. Not a chance.

 

[whatever]

The smart money is in trades these days. I'm even considering a complete career change in that direction myself.

I had a post on the first page of this thread, 14 years ago (!), and my sentiments have been reinforced since then.

I currently hold four degrees (three bachelors and a masters), including one of those coveted STEM degrees, a ton of certifications, several years experience in multiple fields... and a year ago I walked away from my professional career to return to the trades. I was top of my payscale in my professional field, and Day 1 back on the tools I saw a 50-60% pay increase.

I'd tell any young adult today that they're out of their minds if they're unwilling to explore the trades.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I had a post on the first page of this thread, 14 years ago (!), and my sentiments have been reinforced since then.

I currently hold four degrees (three bachelors and a masters), including one of those coveted STEM degrees, a ton of certifications, several years experience in multiple fields... and a year ago I walked away from my professional career to return to the trades. I was top of my payscale in my professional field, and Day 1 back on the tools I saw a 50-60% pay increase.

I'd tell any young adult today that they're out of their minds if they're unwilling to explore the trades.

There’s a big spread of what the trades mean. If you’re a trained and ticketed welder you can make $100k easy. Elevator mechanics, tower crane op, electrician, sure you’ll do fine, especially if in a union or trade that is highly regulated. Anything in construction that requires a professional ticket will make good money. But painter, auto mechanic, general carpenter, house framer? that’s hard work for sometimes only a living wage. I used to sell construction products, namely gas actuated tools for firing pins into concrete - these are used for laying the track in condos for drywall. The guys doing this installation work were paid piece work and could make close to $200k if they worked hard and fast, or double what I was getting paid, but it was a hard job and only for young men until your knees and joints failed and you went on Disability in your late 40s.

Myself, I prefer sales. My degree opened the door which enabled me to travel the world, meeting with interesting firms. I remember in 2018 sitting in Sam’s Club‘s head office in Shenzhen, China where alone, with a hired translator I was successfully negotiating a large product buy, and thinking to myself how did I get here, this is insane. If I didn’t have my BA and the cross cultural and soft skills it gave me, along with my postgrad from George Brown I would have never have got here.

 

[whatever]

There’s a big spread of what the trades mean. If you’re a trained and ticketed welder you can make $100k easy.

Yep, everything you say is accurate. I'm ticketed, in a union, and found myself a very lucrative niche where there's only a few dozen people who really do what I do. For every guy like me there's twenty guys pounding sand for minimum wage.

I guess you could probably see similar trends in most industries. But from what I'm seeing on the ground, there's loads of opportunity here. And the only requirements for someone to get into it is willingness, and maybe a connection that can coach them into the industry

 

[DKsan]

I also want them both to enjoy this adventurous time of their lIves. Both have UK citizenship and passports through me, so I’ve encourage them to look at postgraduate schools in Britain.

Just an FYI, as a dual Canadian-British citizen who works at a UK university - fees are based on residency, not citizenship. Your daughters would need to live here for three years to quality for UK Home fees vs International fees.