Is University Really Worth it?

[denfromoakvillemilton]

More and more recent graduates are having a rough time finding jobs, with just a undergrad degree. It seems like it time to take a look Colleges in Ontario.

http://www.thestar.com/recession/article/627857

In retrospect, their life seemed almost quaint. Lucasz and Angelika Witkowski met in high school, fell in love, got married, bought a house in Orangeville and got a dog they named Nala.

Angelika, 26, was full time on the door line at Chrysler, where her parents still work. Lucasz, 27, made moulds as a machine operator, a skill he learned from his father, who still works in the trade.

They were planning to have children. Then, in March 2008, Angelika was laid off. Lucasz lost his job a month later. That set off a chain of events that still has not ended.

"We were ready to start (a family). Fate said `nope,'" Angelika said. "We were doing everything we were supposed to and it just kind of crashed down."

It crashed down for Huda Assaqqaf, 24, too.

Assaqqaf believed university would bring a stable career. Armed with a food and nutrition degree from Ryerson, she embarked on a job search in 2007 that has yielded nothing but frustration and contract jobs, none of them in her field.

She now works part-time for Access Apartments, co-ordinating personal support workers for people with physical disabilities. "For an office job, it's not very bad."

"It's just that I'm not using my education or my core skills."

This is not what was promised.

Generation Y grew up being told that if they were willing to work and study hard they could have it all: well-paying, fulfilling jobs that provided all the comforts.

But as they reached adulthood, secure jobs began vanishing, replaced by part-time, non-union work with little security, no benefits and odd hours. Then the financial crisis hit. Now, young adults are being forced to radically remake their life plans. They are staying in school longer to keep up with an "educational arms race" and accepting that life will be contract-to-contract, perhaps in different cities, and almost assuredly without benefits.

 

[Brandon716]

You only quoted part of the article, it was a good piece. University is a good thing for people who want to use it for educational purposes. University is not good for people who just want to make more money. The idea is that if you're highly educated you will be more successful, but that isn't always the case.

If people keep that in mind there won't be as many disappointments. University simply isn't for everyone, especially those who aren't there for the purpose of intellectual discourse and learning.

 

[GraphicMatt]

It's not as simple a question as "is university worth it?" - it really depends on the person. We'd be slightly better off, however, if we maintained a better balance between university, college, apprenticeship and straight-to-work. A big part of this is convincing parents that there Cute Little Johnny doesn't NEED to go to university to be successful.

University's still easy to justify, though - it acts as a really important developmental stage in young people's lives.

Grad school can be harder to justify - especially considering the debt it can bring. Again, it's a good idea for some, but not for all.

Also, I thought the story was pretty good, but the lead couple featured kind of baffles me. They were both working at CHRYSLER at inflated salaries ($70K) and seem surprised to have lost their jobs. Had they not read a newspaper recently? The writing's been the wall there for years.

 

[whatever]

I started an apprenticeship and used my earnings to put myself through university with the idea of eventually getting out of the trades altogether and doing something in a professional field. When I graduated there were no worthwhile jobs to be had, so I finished my apprenticeship while waiting for something else to come along. Even recently with work drying up I've been looking around, and am yet to find anything that would be rewarding enough (both financially and personally) to justify leaving the trades.

Looking back I do think that degree was a waste of my time. If I hadn't done it I could have finished my apprenticeship far earlier, I would have been earning income that entire time (so call it $200k in forgone wages over that period), and would have built far more equity in my home than what I have done so far. The degree itself wasn't all that rewarding because I was more concerned with fulfilling program requirements and taking courses that would benefit me in the future than I was with taking courses that interested me. That said, I am glad that I went through with it, because if I hadn't I think it's something that I would have wished I'd done. I guess it was a mistake that I had to make so as to learn a lesson.

And actually, since graduating I re-enrolled to a second degree part-time for fun, and am finding this degree much more rewarding than the first, purely because I'm specifically taking only random courses that are of interest to me. I doubt it'll ever lead to anything lucrative, but it is a pleasant way to pass a couple evenings every week.

 

[Chuck]

Yes, university is worth it, but students must be more practical when choosing their primary field of study. I'll be perfectly honest, my current career is not my life's passion, nor is it number one on my list of interests. However, I chose to take engineering in university because I could tolerate it, and knew that it would bring job security, a decent salary, and options in life.

I used my handful of electives as a chance to pursue my real interests, rather than base my entire education around them. Although my current job can at times be fruitless, it's given me the freedom to freely take up hobbies or travel to places that I want to visit. Overall, I'm happy with my decision.

The point is, students should make a list of maybe 5 things that they're interested in, and pursue whatever interest gives them the best job prospects, even if that might only be number four. That's just how the world works, and it's a sacrifice that one must make in order to get ahead financially. Even if not your number one choice, a sound career will give you the freedom to pursue your interests either on the side or in your spare time.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Well, Chuck, you picked wisely because engineering is one of the few undergraduate degrees where you can go straight into a professional career. With all the others, graduate or professional school after undergrad is the norm or, in the case of medicine, law, business administration, pharmacy and accounting, the requirement.

 

[Brian69]

So many people have undergraduate degrees these days they've almost become meaningless in the quest for a job. Occupations are more interested in specialized skills anyway, which is why I encourage my students to look at all options and consider the trades if they are at all interested in them. As an aside, it's too bad a large number of children of immigrants don't have this opportunity because their parents push them to become professionals (even when they aren't so interested) because they are considered successful occupations and they look down on non-professional occupations. The trades hold good job futures for many who stick to them.

College is useful as well because it encourages its own set of specialized skills. It appears quite a few college students these days have already graduated from university and discovered they needed to specialize in something because they didn't have enough. Postgraduate college degrees and certificates are also on the rise.

I wouldn't discount university, and for many its a great part of the maturing process, but things are different than they were 30 years ago and when were plentiful for university graduates.

 

[LAz]

I think that this really depends...


A bachelors degree is not so much, it's not like in the old days where it was a lot - nowadays it is not much at all. Someone in the US told me that a bachelors will help someone get promoted, that the system in the US is a two tier system... those with a bachelors and those without. I dunno how true that is.


I personally look down at many bachelor degrees... stuff like history or english... what can one do with a liberal arts degree? Not much. I think it's a waste of time. One has to go on to a masters or phd to make it worth it, and even then there is a question of is it enough. Furthermore, even high tech degrees are questionable right now, as so many jobs are outsourced to countries with cheaper labor rates... jee thanks a lot capitalists, and government that allows them to outsource so much.

But hey, I'm a pessimist.

 

[PukeGreen]

I read that Star article yesterday and felt a bit bad for the people featured in it. I wonder if they knew the article would be titled "Generation Why Me" and portray them as hapless and naive. I think they're just trying to get by like everyone else. The comments beneath the article were downright nasty, too, with many people of older generations calling the younger one lazy and entitled, ignoring the fact that 20 or 30 years ago it was much easier to get ahead in many ways.

As for the merits of getting a degree, I also would say "it depends". I am one of the few people I know who earned a degree (computer science) that led directly to jobs in my field, and I have stayed in that field ever since. Certainly you can enter the hi tech industry without a degree, but having that degree on your resume gives you credibility -- and yes, I did actually learn a lot of things that I would likely have not been exposed to otherwise.

That said, I think the mistake many people make is to see the completion of a degree as the end of learning and then they expect to sit back for the next 40 years and "cash in" on their investment. It doesn't work that way. A formal education is really just the beginning and it's then up to an individual to make the most of it. During and after university I continued to self-educate myself. I've taught myself coding languages that didn't even exist when I was in university. But the basic theories I learned carry through and remain valid (mostly) in some form. Technology is a particularly fast-changing field, but I imagine this applies to any area of expertise. A degree gives you a basic foundation, but you still need to work hard and keep yourself valuable. This includes things that are useful in your job that aren't taught in the classroom: in the case of the tech industry, for example, being able to write a coherent email and represent yourself confidently in a meeting room will put you ahead of many of your peers.

On the other hand, a lot of my friends have arts degrees (history, visual arts, etc.) and many never worked in the industry they studied. In the short term the degree just gave them debt, and then they worked years of generic admin jobs to pay it off. I question the value of that.

In the end, I would say that if you really want to go to university, you should go. If you have a very specific field that you want to pursue, you should pursue it. The combination of the degree and the interest will get you far, and if you don't pursue now you may later regret it. On the other hand, if you really have no idea what you want to do with your life and are only considering university because you feel external pressure, you should think twice. Anyone I knew in university who was there only because their parents pushed them or because they just wanted a good salary ended up dropping out or never working in the field anyway. I think it needs to be an internal, personal decision, and to be successful at something I believe you need to enjoy it.

And one final point: when everyone has a degree that might make them "worthless" in some people's minds, but the reality is that if 100 people apply for the same job as you and the other 99 have degrees and you don't, do you really think they're going to call you first? Like it or not, the dedication and resolve required to get a degree -- any degree -- does count for something in many employer's minds. If you don't have one, you will need to be even more diligent in your personal efforts to get ahead.

 

[lordmandeep]

well I know in India, the man that farms and owns land is above a carpenter in status.

Thats why many immigrant look down at the trades and want their kids to be doctors and lawyers and such.

 

[prosperegal]

It depends on the person and what one is looking for (i.e. the kind of lifestyle one wants). Keep in mind that "successful" doesn't necessarily have the same meaning to everyone - to some, having a degree and "book knowledge," but making only $30K as a starting salary is more successful than making $60K straight out of Grade 12. It's a "package" thing, something that a lot of people use when they're looking for long-term/permanent relationships. For example, I won't even consider marrying anyone who doesn't have some sort of post-secondary education (doesn't matter now, since I'm in a permanent relationship with someone with an MBA. As for myself, I have an undergrad and a master's degree).

 

[BobBob]

I agree with PukeGreen's points about the real value of post-secondary education. This is something that many people misunderstand, due to our capitalistic way of thinking: knowledge is a commodity that can be bought (at school), and then cashed in for long term gains during one's work career.

This is simply not the case. Most of the value from a university education comes not from *what* you learn, but from learning how to learn, how to think critically, how to synthesize knowledge into new levels of complexity and understanding, etc.

It's precisely right that, if you went to university in order to "get through" your required credits, and then expect to be able to sit back and enjoy your hard earned status, you are in for a disappointment. Your expectation should be to receive a solid start to a lifetime of learning and self-development.

Unfortunately, the former is the view of many university students nowadays, in almost any field.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I've got to leap to the deference of English/History/Philosophy/whatever degrees, being the proud of owner of a BA in History. While I'm not doing anything that directly relates to my field of study, I don't at all regret my choice - in fact, those studies contribute greatly to the skills I use every day. There's a lot to be said for learning how to synthesize ideas, think critically, research both online and offline, etc. There's a lot to be said for knowing how to write.

My answer to the question "What are you going to do with your degree?" was always "Hang it on my wall." I understood that university is not vocational school - nor should it be - and gained a ton of work experience during the summers.

It worked out well for me. I have a good job that I really like. And while I don't generally get the opportunity to mention Joseph Howe at the office, I do in fact use things I learned in university every day. And my degree? It hangs on my wall.

 

[bleeepbluuup]

well I know in India, the man that farms and owns land is above a carpenter in status.

Thats why many immigrant look down at the trades and want their kids to be doctors and lawyers and such.

Besides status, if your kids have the potential to become doctors or lawyers or some other well-paid professional, it can be a bit despair-inducing to see them choose a path that seems to lead to Starving Artist-hood, especially when you immigrated specifically to give your children a shot at the good life. My parents totally flipped out when my sister decided to drop all her science courses in high school. I dutifully took every OAC course possible and went to engineering school. Now my diploma sits on the shelf in its original envelope and I use no engineering knowledge in my everyday life. If I had been honest with myself, I would have applied to art school, but I really didn't consider it an option.

 

[syn]

I've got to leap to the deference of English/History/Philosophy/whatever degrees, being the proud of owner of a BA in History. While I'm not doing anything that directly relates to my field of study, I don't at all regret my choice - in fact, those studies contribute greatly to the skills I use every day. There's a lot to be said for learning how to synthesize ideas, think critically, research both online and offline, etc. There's a lot to be said for knowing how to write.

My answer to the question "What are you going to do with your degree?" was always "Hang it on my wall." I understood that university is not vocational school - nor should it be - and gained a ton of work experience during the summers.

It worked out well for me. I have a good job that I really like. And while I don't generally get the opportunity to mention Joseph Howe at the office, I do in fact use things I learned in university every day. And my degree? It hangs on my wall.

I completely agree. Too many people directly tie the degree one does with the job they must do. The truth is that a degree allows you to develop a lot of skills that you can use in a variety of fields.