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High-Speed Rail Proposals

Actually Peterborough is interesting because it is a city with a respectable population but no rail service whatsoever. This makes its hard to estimate how much demand there would be since there is no existing data to work from. But it also would be a really good opportunity to explore how to build rail service to places which currently have none. I admit I don't have any real proof that Peterborough would be a strong market and that it would actually provide a justifiable amount of traffic to connect it to the Lakeshore line at Port Hope/Cobourg, but I think that possibility is really worth investigating.
Peterborough did have VIA rail service until the early 80s, so I'm sure ridership numbers are kicking around somewhere. It has more students now then it did then, plus there's a fair amount of commuting to the GTA, especially in Durham Region. The Durham commuter market wouldn't be served at all along the Havelock sub since it's north of the urban areas. So I could actually see the benefits of a new track going north from Port Hope. The countryside isn't rocky like the Kingston area but it is hilly and it would have to cross the Oak Ridges Moraine.
 
if existing lakeshore service is retained, the commuters get served and the lakeshore communities have access to MTL and OTT. My question from environment and urban planning perspectives is - do we want long distance commuting?
 
The primary reason that rail service (be it VIA or GO) is not more successful is simply that passenger rail is subordinate to freight companies and will never be able to operate an efficient service. Put VIA and GO on dedicated passenger right of ways without even worrying about high speed improvements would alone make passenger rail far more desirable. And in its own corridor then it could actually make schedules basedon providing a better service than simply when it can get track time from CN or CP. Higher speeds obviously help in making it even more attractive and profitable though and since new right of ways would have to be constructed, doing so to the highest standards makes sense given that difference in building a 160km/h right of way and a 300 km/h right of way is not that much different (in non urban areas, in cities it a different case).

Long distance commuting may not be desirable, but, name me a Liberal-Democratic country that has been successful in stopping the trend? Even more Social-Democratic countries face the same problem. Suburbanization is not something that can be stopped and it makes more sense to accommodate the trend in a most sustainable manner with commuter rail and long distance rail services than to just pretend the problem will go away.

MisterF: Another advantage I see too routing Peterborough to a Port Hope station would be that for a relatively low operational cost you could provide a very strong service. With the exception of rush hour commuting services departure and arrival times could be determined based on making connecting services at Port Hope. Someone coming from Ottawa or Montreal would be able to get off at Port Hope and know that their connecting train will be their waiting (and since that would be the primary function of the line in most cases if an inter city train was late the connecting train could be scheduled with a buffer to allow for late arrivals). At a distance of 30km and if the line where built to handle speeds of even just 100km/h one train set could make a round trip every hour. Two trains would be able to offer half hour service. A few Talents or Sprinters is all you would really need to offer a really strong and efficient service from Peterborough to the rest of the network (plus whatever stock would be needed for daily commuting purposes of course).

Edit: Peterborough is not the only city that may benefit from this type of service and connection with a mainline. I could see something like this perhaps serving communities like Carleton Place and Arnprior just outside of Ottawa. Or along the North Shore in Quebec a city like Shawinigan could have a line connecting it with Trois Rivieres. It would require some research to see what kind of demand there was but that kind of connection could be an effective way of serving some cities.
 
I should affirm that Peterborough doesn't make sense for a main line. At the speeds we're talking about, the shortened distance to Ottawa would result in negligible time savings. The existing corridor along the lake has established travel patterns along the 401. Most importantly, the terrain through Peterborough to Ottawa is extremely difficult on which to build.

Any line along the Lakeshore would have to be built in a separate right of way for most of its length. The reports I have suggest the 401 right of way where possible. It is possible to run a high speed line next to an existing freight line, but it would likely provide no cost savings, especially on the Kingston Sub since major straightening-out would be needed.
 
not only would straightening out be a factor on the freight-HSR shared alignment, but there would have to be testing for buffet or debris effects from a HSR passing a freight. (One of the interesting parts about watching a documentary about the Shanghai maglev was the need to test for two maglevs passing at a closing speed of 860km/h!)

The 401 alignment sounds good in theory but in practice any construction disruption to 401 would bring loud opposition, and unless a Transrapid maglev was used (they don't derail even in a crash but it's unlikely one would be used) the fear of derailment impacting the large traffic flow on 401 would also be an issue.

It's true that the 401 corridor is an established traffic flow but that's not actually a reason to stick rigidly with it. Like I said, when there's huge point to point traffic the route you use isn't a big deal. It need not be a bullet straight line either and could respect the terrain to a certain extent. Maybe a 160km/h Sudbury service could run from Ottawa and break off the Toronto HSR line at a point where passengers could transfer from Toronto-Ottawa services.

One other possible impact of putting trains going to Peterborough might be impact on cottage country. It would be nice to see a hire-car operation in Peterborough to encourage cottagers to take the train there and hire a car to take them to their cottage, taking hundreds of car-kilometres off the highways - something that might work in Barrie too when the GO gets there.
 
^Going to school in Waterloo, I came home to Peterborough on most long weekends. The traffic on the 401 is horrendous pretty much all the way to the 115 exit on long weekends. Nothing would have been nicer than a train to bypass all that. I don't know how people put up with cottage traffic every weekend. GO would be crazy not to tap into that market with its Barrie train. No doubt there'd be demand for weekend train service farther north too.
 
The idea of serving cottage country (Peterborough, Barrie, etc) is a really good one. The problem is that most of the people who are heading to cottages for the weekend are going to be a demographic with a respectable amount of disposable income, and, picky. So you can run services primarily for this group of people, but, the first time a train is delayed more than 20 minutes or they find themselves sitting on a track in the middle of nowhere because GO has to wait for freight, they will be back in their cars and the market for this service will shrink rapidly.

On a proper passenger rail network this would not be a problem and the service would probably do really well. Right now though, I am not sure how well it would turn out.

Building next to the 401 is likely not a big issue either. There are plenty of new HS lines built in Europe that run parallel to the motorways. The 401 also has a fairly generous right of way reserved (plus I am sure the government still owns a lot of the land expropriated from farmers that borders the highway as well). When the time comes to actually build the line it will probably weave back and forth between the route roughly following the freight right of way, the 401, and perhaps some new right of ways. Since the 401 and the Kingston Sub are never far from each other it doesn't really matter which right of way you choose in the interim since they both describe the same corridor.

Another issue that needs to be looked at in detail are suburban stations. Obviously on a HS network you are not likely to have many, perhaps one, maybe two in some rare cases, at the edge of a metropolitan area, but where they are located and how accessible they are too people will be really key. One area of Toronto that comes to mind is Markham/Vaughan. This is an area with a really strong market potential given the income levels in most of these areas. But if taking HSR services from Toronto to Montreal or Ottawa means having to drive downtown and deal with parking or what not or take inadequate public transit, you will never capture the potential market of that area. This is another case where an upgraded Stouffeville or Barrie GO line with passenger priority (or better yet freight all but kicked off or left to run at night) with trains that are scheduled to make and receive connecting HSR trains effectively, would be really important in making the service more than just downtown to downtown travel. Barrhaven is a good case in point. the station actually gets a fair amount of traffic now and for someone living in that part of Ottawa, makes VIA a much more attractive option. The same would be true of a Vaughan or Markham VIA station too I think (which in that case would also work well not just for those travelers making connections in Toronto, but, also for holidaymakers and cottagers heading away for the weekend).
 
GO to Barrie?

What ever happened to this? Not sure what year this is from but found it on the net.

QUEEN'S PARK, Sept. 28 /CNW/ - The Ontario government and the City of
Barrie have successfully finalized an agreement that will bring GO train
service to the City of Barrie, Ontario Transportation Minister Donna Cansfield
and City of Barrie Mayor Robert Hamilton announced today.
An agreement has been finalized to secure the lands and rail corridor
needed for GO Transit rail service to the City of Barrie. Up to four GO trains
are expected to serve Barrie by late 2007.
"Since 2003, the McGuinty government has committed approximately
$1.6 billion for GO Transit," Cansfield said. "It's time that residents from
the City of Barrie get the service they deserve. Expanding GO Transit rail
service gives residents better access to public transit and reduces highway
congestion."
"Barrie City Council is pleased to have reached an agreement that brings
GO train service back to our community," comments Mayor Rob Hamilton. "Council
identified extending GO train service as one of our top ten priorities, and
this joint financial partnership is a key element in positioning Barrie as we
move into the future and build a complete community."
"We look forward to working with the City of Barrie to improve
transportation for one of the fastest-growing municipalities in Ontario," GO
Transit Chairman Peter Smith said. "Extending the GO train to Barrie will
enhance the GO bus service we already operate in that area."
The expansion is part of the GO Transit Rail Improvement Program (GO
TRIP), a billion dollar expansion announced by the province in May 2004 and
funded by Ontario and municipalities with a contribution from the federal
government through the Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund.
"Since 1995, GO Transit ridership has grown by 51 per cent to 47 million
riders a year," said Cansfield. "Ridership is expected to double within the
next 20 to 30 years and we're doing what has to be done now to make public
transit work for commuters."
 
I don't know how people put up with cottage traffic every weekend. GO would be crazy not to tap into that market with its Barrie train. No doubt there'd be demand for weekend train service farther north too.

Ontario Northland has had trains timed pretty well for people heading to cottage country in the past but I don't think the service has been too successful. For example on a long weekend you can catch a train in Toronto early Friday morning and return Sunday night. Admittedly a second run departing Toronto after 5pm and arriving back in Toronto would fill a void.
 
More from Alberta... National Post

Link to article

Premier backs train
High-speed link between Calgary and Edmonton worth studying, think-tank says

Geoffrey Scotton and Jason Fekete
Calgary Herald

Friday, May 18, 2007


A multibillion-dollar, high-speed rail link between Calgary and Edmonton took a forceful step forward Thursday after Premier Ed Stelmach threw his support behind the idea.

"We have to. We have no choice. It will reduce emissions and it's visionary. Now is the time to prepare because we have the options available to purchase land," Stelmach said.

"It's part of planning for the future -- there's no doubt about it -- as the province of Alberta continues to grow and we see more people move to Edmonton, Calgary and, of course, the Highway 2 corridor," he added.

Stelmach's comments came in the wake of a report from the Conference Board of Canada calling on the federal and provincial governments to fully investigate the costs and benefits of high-speed rail links for both the Calgary-Edmonton corridor, and between Windsor, Ont., and Quebec City.

In April, the province bought land in downtown Calgary and in Edmonton that could serve as train stations and the acquisition of property along the highway.

"I hope that our report does add weight to the argument," said Conference Board president Anne Golden. "Federal and provincial governments must seriously consider it."

The call by the Ottawa-based, privately funded economic think-tank adds momentum to the concept, which has been discussed for years but is now the subject of a $1-million market assessment study by the Alberta government, due in July. It's the latest in a series of examinations that have indicated the concept has merit.

"It's certainly a new voice. There's already a lot of attention on the idea here in Alberta," said Jerry Bellikka, spokesman for Infrastructure and Transportation Minister Luke Ouellette, of the Conference Board report.

"You have to look at things on a business case and that's going to involve a lot of factors: whether or not there's a market for it, what the cost would be, if we have the population to support it," Bellikka said, adding the government has no plans beyond its current market study.

"We're really taking this one step at a time," he said.

While a rail link along the Queen Elizabeth 2 Highway would seem like the most logical right-of-way, Stelmach said the government has also eyed Highway 21, which runs parallel to the QE2 about 50 kilometres to the east. Stelmach, a former transportation minister, said past studies have indicated the train could reduce vehicle traffic by 22 per cent.

In Ottawa, an official in Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon's office said the federal government's upcoming infrastructure plan might provide some funding for a feasibility study.

"The bottom line . . . is that in the budget we have announced $33 billion for infrastructure. We are currently finalizing our infrastructure plan, we are discussing with the partners, we are identifying our priorities, assessing projects," said Natalie Safarian, Cannon's press secretary. "We will be presenting our infrastructure plan shortly."

A Calgary group, Alberta High-Speed Rail Inc., has floated the idea of a private-public sector joint venture that would see the Alberta government spend $1.6 billion to buy land and build the line, while western Canadian private investors would fund the trains and administration.

"What we're proposing to build is a double-track electric line with TGV-style trains doing 300 kilometres an hour and taking 84 minutes to go from downtown Calgary to downtown Edmonton," said High-Speed's president and chief executive, Bill Cruickshanks, on Thursday.

"Under 600 kilometres, high-speed rail is the most efficient way of moving people around. You can add lanes to Highway 2, but it'll still take you three hours to get there, it'll still have winter driving conditions and it will do nothing to reduce greenhouse gases, " Cruickshanks noted.

"A high-speed train can travel winter and summer, will always get you there in 84 minutes because there's not the congestion there is on the highway, and once you've built it, you can expand it for capacity without having to build any more infrastructure."

Estimates of the project's total cost are as high as $5 billion.

The premier said the project would not be solely funded through Alberta taxpayers' dollars, noting an equity partnership with Ottawa -- or any other type of deal -- isn't out of the question.

"All options are on the table," Stelmach said.

There's an opportunity to snare federal dollars, he added, noting Ottawa is interested in cost sharing for projects that reduce greenhouse gas emissions and move large volumes of people.

Municipalities must also work closely together, he said, noting Calgary should be planning for future rail links to communities like Okotoks and Airdrie.

The Alberta Liberals also are calling for a high-speed train between Calgary and Edmonton, and recently had a motion passed in the legislature that called on the government to procure the necessary lands and right-of-way for the project.

"At least they're starting to think about it," Liberal Leader Kevin Taft said Thursday.
 
A map I found on Alberta High-Speed Rail's website.

greenfield.jpg


"What we're proposing to build is a double-track electric line with TGV-style trains doing 300 kilometres an hour and taking 84 minutes to go from downtown Calgary to downtown Edmonton," said High-Speed's president and chief executive, Bill Cruickshanks, on Thursday.
Very impressive if this does happen!
 
I'ev always thought that the biggest advantage of an Alberta line is the ability to serve both airports directly en route. And the biggest disadvantage is the complete lack of train connections beyond the two endpoints.
 
It is good to see high-speed rail being taken seriously somewhere in Canada. The province has bought land for the terminals and owns the upper deck of High Level Bridge in Edmonton to allow access to downtown with the service. With language like:

"We have to. We have no choice. It will reduce emissions and it's visionary."

being used by a premier with a booming surplus the project looks almost like a sure thing.

I'm hoping that the feds contribute significantly to the project as that would increase the likelihood of improvements in the Windsor-Quebec corridor. If Alberta does the whole thing without federal funding we might sit here in Eastern Canada looking West in envy knowing we have a much higher population but trains running less frequent with rail speeds frequently less than 100km/h.
 
If the federal government doesn't fund it -- and I doubt they will -- it will make them funding a Quebec-Windsor project virtually impossible since Alberta, with some justification, would consider it quite unfair.
 

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