DKsan
Active Member
They're such an incendiary group. They're never satisfied and despite being called TTCRiders, they should really be called "Toronto Transit Tiders who never leave the city Group."
|
|
|
GTHA Transit Fare Integration
- Thread starter RedRocket191
- Start date
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I love how they consider the increase in funding from the city their accomplishment - as if somehow they were the ones who moved heaven and earth for it.
http://act.ttcriders.ca/accomplishments
AoD
http://act.ttcriders.ca/accomplishments
AoD
Markster
Senior Member
Remember, every single poor person in Toronto commutes exclusively within Toronto for work! And they all go downtown. None of them have jobs nearby in the 905 that force them to buy cars because the transit options are both infrequent and expensive due to the arbitrary lines in the sand!
Northern Light
Superstar
I think that Metrolinx may be headed down a perilous course if it proposes any kind of premium for subways or creates a 'zone' system within the City.
Its not merely a matter of whether its good policy; though to be sure that does matter.
Its also a matter of whats politically feasible. That shouldn't encourage cowardice, but inviting backlash and backpedaling isn't sensible either.
Besides which, any kind of subway premium means tap in/out of buses and on again to enter the subway or the very least tap out for stations, but that's not a given either.
(example, I could exit St. Clair West, having boarded at St. Clair, by taking the streetcar alone; or by subwaying around the loop)
Saving those costs; along with proposing something that will pass muster w/the largest number of people is crucial.
For me, that means the following:
1) Harmonize the prices of fares within each system, ie. An adult fare in Mississauga is the same as Whitby or Toronto. This doesn't necessarily cut prices
but it does make fares predictable which improves the ability of people to easily trip plan and calculate in their head what stuff costs.
2)For the non-GO systems, move to each system being a zone; that way the fares stay the same for riders who continue to travel within the system they were already using.
So Toronto would be Zone 1; Mississauga, Brampton, YRT urban, and DRT urban would all be Zone 2, with the option of ex-urban systems being Zone 3.
3)With zones in place, apply a formula that provides for less than full price when you cross a zone; but be prepared to put new subsidy in to achieve this initially.
This may be mean a lesser price cut than some would hope for, but that can always be revisited once you have the new system in place.
I would suggest a fairly straight forward reduce by 1/2. So if You start in Zone 1 and pay $3 to ride, and you cross into Zone 2, you pay an additional $1.50.
4) The alternative to the above would a straight 2-hour fare, by any non-GO train means, w/o zones. That might, however, result in the need for greater subsidy, in the absence of a steep fare hike.
5) Lastly, introduced a standard discount that would also apply in Toronto, for GO users. Realistically, this number can't be a cheap as it is now in the 905. So I think
something like, full GO fare (but with some short-haul GO trips reduced in price); and 1/2 fare for any other system, once you've paid for GO.
I'm not stuck on the numbers.
Rather I think its important that whatever is brought forward doesn't either meet with a political firestorm; nor that it cause substantial ridership erosion due to an inordinate hike for TTC riders.
What concerns me, in the light of UPX is that Metrolinx doesn't seem to have the best political/consumer instincts.
Its not merely a matter of whether its good policy; though to be sure that does matter.
Its also a matter of whats politically feasible. That shouldn't encourage cowardice, but inviting backlash and backpedaling isn't sensible either.
Besides which, any kind of subway premium means tap in/out of buses and on again to enter the subway or the very least tap out for stations, but that's not a given either.
(example, I could exit St. Clair West, having boarded at St. Clair, by taking the streetcar alone; or by subwaying around the loop)
Saving those costs; along with proposing something that will pass muster w/the largest number of people is crucial.
For me, that means the following:
1) Harmonize the prices of fares within each system, ie. An adult fare in Mississauga is the same as Whitby or Toronto. This doesn't necessarily cut prices
but it does make fares predictable which improves the ability of people to easily trip plan and calculate in their head what stuff costs.
2)For the non-GO systems, move to each system being a zone; that way the fares stay the same for riders who continue to travel within the system they were already using.
So Toronto would be Zone 1; Mississauga, Brampton, YRT urban, and DRT urban would all be Zone 2, with the option of ex-urban systems being Zone 3.
3)With zones in place, apply a formula that provides for less than full price when you cross a zone; but be prepared to put new subsidy in to achieve this initially.
This may be mean a lesser price cut than some would hope for, but that can always be revisited once you have the new system in place.
I would suggest a fairly straight forward reduce by 1/2. So if You start in Zone 1 and pay $3 to ride, and you cross into Zone 2, you pay an additional $1.50.
4) The alternative to the above would a straight 2-hour fare, by any non-GO train means, w/o zones. That might, however, result in the need for greater subsidy, in the absence of a steep fare hike.
5) Lastly, introduced a standard discount that would also apply in Toronto, for GO users. Realistically, this number can't be a cheap as it is now in the 905. So I think
something like, full GO fare (but with some short-haul GO trips reduced in price); and 1/2 fare for any other system, once you've paid for GO.
I'm not stuck on the numbers.
Rather I think its important that whatever is brought forward doesn't either meet with a political firestorm; nor that it cause substantial ridership erosion due to an inordinate hike for TTC riders.
What concerns me, in the light of UPX is that Metrolinx doesn't seem to have the best political/consumer instincts.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Harmonizing prices, as in having the same rates across the region? I don't think that would work since every operator has their own unique costs associated with running the service. This would likely lead to service cuts unless the province increased their subsidies.
minilude
Active Member
maybe they should work out a scheme that for base fare e.g. $2.9~$3.4 depending on which local transit operator you board, it can cover up to 10km distance of subway/GO-RER/crosstown, then it will go up based on how far you travelled. Riders who tap on subway/GO-RER/crosstown as their first trip could cover up to 18km of range by base fare (lots of ppl guessing it will be $3~$3.5 for 416 GO-RER, and subway/crosstown can stay at $2.9 for Toronto and $3.4 for Vaughan), and then go up. The km numbers are just random but I think that's reasonable coverage. By charging a premium immediately after boarding on to subway/GO-RER/crosstown, it psychologically scare off riders a bit.
rbt
Senior Member
Yeah. If they really want the Hybrid or fare-by-distance approach, I think that's the only way to get there. Wynne won't get re-elected by mucking with TTC fare structure in a way that penalizes 416 suburbs.
An extra $2B over 10 years for operations in order to remove this limitation in a slow manner (drop GO rates today, jack up over next 10 to 15 years to remove bulk of subsidy). It's pretty justifiable budget wise if it significantly jump-starts Toronto office development, impacts congestion, and politically dropping GO prices through the floor will make RER really popular and a Liberal 2022 election win possible.
Final result would be similar to Paris. Low flat fares for single-zone travel with a very large central zone (416 in this case), and rapidly increasing multi-zone fares on rapid transit. As a starting point a 10 cent per km fare-by-distance with a $3 minimum makes it a $12 fare from Union to Barrie, $3.20 from Union to Steeles & Markham road, and the vast majority of existing TTC trips would be $3 flat.
All of this, of course, assumes Liberals are still in control after 2018. Both NDP and Conservatives can jack make more extreme early moves and blame the Liberals for it.
Last edited:
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
rbt
Senior Member
Probably not enough to match a TTC fare without something extra sprinkled on top from the charts I've seen released, especially if GO is expected to pay something to TTC for transferring customers as proposed in the Hybrid/fare-by-distance items.
GO/Metrolinx doesn't need a subsidy to continue to exist and be moderately successful. Wynne needs GO/Metrolinx to be subsidized to implement the Hybrid or fare-by-distance method across the region and not lose a bunch of seats in the following election.
If you don't care about GO operating in the 416 like current subway lines do (free transfers, flat $2.90 fare, etc.) then a Metrolinx operating subsidy is absolutely unnecessary for those trips.
Last edited:
yyztvguy
New Member
For those online at the moment... the board meeting is diving into Fare Integration. It doesn't seem like Metrolinx understands how small the subsidy is for TTC users... http://www.metrolinx.com/en/aboutus/videolibrary/webcast.aspx
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Metrolinx reiterates that they want this to be "fare neutral". Aka, the province are a bunch of cheep asses looking to shuffle money around.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
It was revealed that 16 Million annual GO trips use TTC. TTC network ridership is over 500 Million.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
It would cost $40 Million to eliminate fare boundary at Steeles. That's about 10% of TTC's subsidy from the City, or equivalent to a 1% property tax increases.
Metrolinx CEO seems to think this is a small amount of money.
Palma
Senior Member
front and yonge to steeles and yonge is 17.2km per google and to Clark Ave its 18.2. Again short distance travellers are penalized
Palma
Senior Member
is that meeting still going on? I went to link and board members still there but no talking