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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

smallspy said:
Incorrect. See CROR rule 107.
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OK, I stand corrected.

That said, the platform is clearly not designed to service the northern tracks, given the rears of buildings, lamp posts positions, and amount of spacing to nearest northern track. Perhaps Metrolinx doesn't want to deal with possible freight contention (extra rail time needed to stop) and they were always going to build the platform tracks through anyway.
 
vegeta_skyline said:
The CROR allows for it but GO does not where as it VIA makes use of it from time to time. Only in case of emergency(i.e the Richmond Hill flood) would a GO train/coach be allowed to open its doors when not directly beside a platform.
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That may be GO's own internal rules, but it certainly hasn't stopped them from offloading on the west track at Langstaff, or on the north track of the Georgetown in a pinch.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
crs1026 said:
See

http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/improve/wtd/Niagara Rail Expansion ESR Appendix E.pdf
Click to expand...
The Hamilton Junction Feasibility Study.

This brings up the subject of Hamilton all-day 2-way service. Something repeatedly promised by governments for more than two decades, and a frequently broken promise.

This study covers the complications of pushing 2-way service through the Hamiltion Junction, including pocket tracks, possible portions of main tracks (even if it terminates at Hamilton Junction), or the full monty (full new main track from Aldershot to James North).

They have clearly chosen the "Pocket Track" option at James Street North, so in theory they could begin 60-minute all-day 2-way service but with major delays due to freight. Conceivably, the door is potentially open (as soon as Stoney Creek *and* Lewis layover opens, with $115M of related rail infrastructure improvements) to begin this as early as 2019.

But could GO bring all-day two-way service at lower frequencies, such as a couple of midday trains and a couple of late-evening trains? It could happen as early as as 2016-2017 when West Harbor rail infrastructure is complete, and the pocket track continues onwards to reconnect to the Grimsby sub.

Ontario, however, wants to bring the 2-way all-day service to Hamilton Centre GO station, not West Harbor. Even in the newest Ontario document released yesterday, it quotes:
  • The 10-year GO Regional Express Rail program will bring 30-minute peak period service from West Harbour to Toronto in the morning and back in the evening. It will also bring 15-minute peak period service from Hamilton GO Centre to Union Station in the morning and back in the evening. Two-way hourly service will also be provided daily between Hamilton GO Centre and Toronto.
I am pretty interested in the rationale of Hamilton Centre GO versus West Harbor GO, and the plan for incremental service expansions. It still looks like progress could go either way -- West Harbor versus Hamilton Centre -- based on how easy it was to slot the trains all day long. So the station roles could technically change, especially as the Hamilton LRT is built (A-Line stub).
 
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crs1026 said:
See

http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/improve/wtd/Niagara Rail Expansion ESR Appendix E.pdf

for the preliminary thinking.

The trackage at the new station is a little more enhanced than this version.

- Paul
Click to expand...
mdrejhon said:
The Hamilton Junction Feasibility Study.

This brings up the subject of Hamilton all-day 2-way service. Something repeatedly promised by governments for more than two decades, and a frequently broken promise.

This study covers the complications of pushing 2-way service through the Hamiltion Junction, including pocket tracks, possible portions of main tracks (even if it terminates at Hamilton Junction), or the full monty (full new main track from Aldershot to James North).

They have clearly chosen the "Pocket Track" option at James Street North, so in theory they could begin 60-minute all-day 2-way service but with major delays due to freight. Conceivably, the door is potentially open (as soon as Stoney Creek *and* Lewis layover opens, with $115M of related rail infrastructure improvements) to begin this as early as 2019.

But could GO bring all-day two-way service at lower frequencies, such as a couple of midday trains and a couple of late-evening trains? It could happen as early as as 2016-2017 when West Harbor rail infrastructure is complete, and the pocket track continues onwards to reconnect to the Grimsby sub.

Ontario, however, wants to bring the 2-way all-day service to Hamilton Centre GO station, not West Harbor. Even in the newest Ontario document released yesterday, it quotes:
  • The 10-year GO Regional Express Rail program will bring 30-minute peak period service from West Harbour to Toronto in the morning and back in the evening. It will also bring 15-minute peak period service from Hamilton GO Centre to Union Station in the morning and back in the evening. Two-way hourly service will also be provided daily between Hamilton GO Centre and Toronto.
I am pretty interested in the rationale of Hamilton Centre GO versus West Harbor GO, and the plan for incremental service expansions. It still looks like progress could go either way -- West Harbor versus Hamilton Centre -- based on how easy it was to slot the trains all day long. So the station roles could technically change, especially as the Hamilton LRT is built (A-Line stub).
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So why not just start now with 1tph while putting the track in and go to 2tph in 2019?
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
So why not just start now with 1tph while putting the track in and go to 2tph in 2019?
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As it stands now, a delay at West Harbor will cascade to the rest of the Lakeshore West line, and consequently to Lakeshore East.

Metrolinx needs a certain amount of timetable reliability for West Harbor trains. I do expect that futher completion of West Harbor (to 2017), full activation of Lewis layover trainyard (4 sidings, 2016) as well as the Stoney Creek GO (2017-2019) related rail infrastructure improvements, will provide enough reliability to start 1tph offpeak as early as 2019, if Metrolinx was pressed to do so

From what I see in Metrolinx announcements, 2tph won't happen before 2025.
Even hourly is a maddeningly long delay to 2024, at currently announced plans.
Hopefully there is a way to accelerate this to maybe 2019-ish, but freight is a bottleneck.
 
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Sorry to change the subject but I was thinking right now and I think this is the best place to ask:

Why don't the other GO Train lines offer weeknend service?

I know right now getting all day service is restricted by trainsets, the lack of double tracks and sharing tracks with freight, but none of this is a concern for offering some kind of limited weekend service on all the lines.

Trainsets can't be an issue: they have to have them for the weekly service so they are physically available.

The Barrie line right now is doing just that, but its only summer seasonal, and the other completely dedicated line, the Stoufville line, could be doing the exact same thing theoretically.

Why can't the weekend service on the Barrie line be year round?

And even though some GO lines share trackage with freight so what? They already share it Monday to friday, why can't they do the same on weekends. Do CPR and CN run extra freight trains during the weekend?

Id be surprised in such a large area of the GTA that demand is an issue. One might argue that weekend buses are already available so whats the point? However many studies conclude that trains are seen as a much more attractive option for Transit than buses, even if the trip is not shorter. We need to focus on getting people out of the car.

It seems odd to me that we are going from nothing to committing to electric trains with 2 way all day weekend service on 5 lines out of the blue.

Wouldnt a proper business case be to slowly ramp up service now and build interest and demand?
 
The existing weekend and off-peak bus service is, for the most part, both faster and more frequent than weekend train service would be. It what has built interest and demand.

Now we need to upgrade the rail lines so they could offer comparable off-peak service.

If I was in Unionville I would be angry if they replaced my half-hourly 25 minute bus trip to Union with a train every hour or two which took 35 minutes.

For the existing Barrie weekend service, there's a bus every half hour to/from Newmarket, while the train runs with 2-4 hour gaps between trains.

Trains are not automatically better.
 
CDL.TO said:
Trains are not automatically better.
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Agree. The market demand is different on weekends, and the value offered is different. Destinations change, and key highways are not as congested, so trains aren't faster nor do they take people where they need to go.

Adding weekend service would drive up GO's costs enormously. Things like cleaning, fuelling and maintenance, station staffing, fare enforcement and security. Not to mention the number of crews needed - a huge new training burden for GO.

Speaking of the latter, has anyone seen published data on GO's workforce planning for the operating complement? One hears commentary that the expansion to date, including UPE, combined with the latest Transport Canada regs, make it difficult for BBD to keep up. They can't just hire on demand, they have to train people with a legnthy certification process, so there is a lag between a decision to add a run and when it can be added. Even something like the West Harbour extension is a big deal, because of the number of people in the pool who have to be qualified to run that new segment, even if it only requires two crews a day Mon-Fri. Reportedly BBD has cashed in on the morale problems at CP, which is resulting in lots of qualified CP RTE's leaving CP for GO. Just wondering how big of a challenge this is, or isn't, given future plans.

- Paul
 
CDL.TO said:
Trains are not automatically better.
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And that is why we need to implore that the train is designed to compete with the bus.

Express trains + electricifation + 15min RER = finally faster than GO bus.

It's possible for a train to get to Burlington faster than by GO bus, taking only 30-35 minutes on current railroad speed limits if it was an express train. Niagara seasonal summer diesel train makes Union-Burlington in 40 minutes, while making only a couple stops in between.

Coincidentially -- Metrolinx has tweeted a 7-second GO RER video:
https://twitter.com/Metrolinx/status/618510553745616896

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153129706888386
 
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robmausser said:
How will this problem be solved with GO RER offering service every 30 minutes on weekends?
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It won't....but after we see the pricetag for building RER, the operating costs will look puny.

To be a little less flippant, I do hope GO gradually introduces weekend service on all its routes. Hopefully ridership will grow commensurate with the added expense.

My point was, a lot of the GO operation is only 5 days deep at the moment. Yes, the trains and tracks sit idle, but some activities eg shop work are structured around a weekend shutdown. Labour laws and agreements will likely stipulate those working weekends earn premium wages - so the incremental cost of weekend service is greater than just 40% more than the current system. Implementing a 7-day-per-week shift schedule for station personnel etc is not good news for those who currently only work Mon-Fri.

When I have taken the Barrie GO on summer weekends, the ridership has appeared promising. However, the trains aren't running anywhere close to full. Those frequent weekday trains are only cost-effective because they are crammed. It will be a long time before 2WAD-7day service - RER or otherwise - has the same revenue earning potential as rush hour weekday service.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
Adding weekend service would drive up GO's costs enormously.
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Enormously? GO has already promised to add weekend service for the Stouffville, Kitchener, and Barrie lines, with the time frame on when this service will start. They've also promised to increase weekend Lakeshore East/West service a bit.
 
nfitz said:
Enormously? GO has already promised to add weekend service for the Stouffville, Kitchener, and Barrie lines, with the time frame on when this service will start. They've also promised to increase weekend Lakeshore East/West service a bit.
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Yup. And - when they add the service, their costs will go up. Before they add the service, they will have to hire and train people.

As compared to adding 30-minute service on the Lakeshore line, or extending service to West Harbour, they will hire proportionately more people. 30-min service didn't change the number of ticket agents significantly. Nor did it require extra security staff. Nor did the fuel stand at Willowbrook have to stay open on Saturdays. Nor did anyone have to clean coaches, shovel snow, empty garbage, etc etc - other than on the Lakeshore line.

Hopefully they will sell more tickets, and hopefully the net difference is worth it in terms of the region's transportation habits. But it will cost lots more.

- Paul
 
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