Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[TransitBart]

Anyway the point is mute, we are not going back to that plan.

The point is moot. If it were mute, we would not hear from it any longer.

 

[Voltz]

How would grade-separating Eglinton East and getting rid of stops maybe 100 people tops will use per day like Ferrand, Lebovic and Ionview make the line less effective? If we had stuck with the MOU and things played out the same way, today the Wynne Liberals likely would have offered to foot the bill for the higher cost.

What we're instead getting is a 22 km/h surface segment through western Scarborough attached to the rapid 35-40 km/h underground tunnel through Midtown that'll slow down the works for all commuters involved trying to use the Crosstown as an alternative to Bloor-Danforth; all because someone with mayoral ambitions whose not even in politics anyone just had to stick it to the acting Mayor.

I don't know how many times this needs to be said before it sinks in, there were no plans or anything going on with the Scarborough Subway when council decide to reject Ford's MOU. The choice was between the Finch, Eglinton Sheppard and SLRT extension LRT's or blowing all that money on Eglinton between Don Mills and Kennedy. It would have cost three LRT lines to save only a few minutes of travel time to a location where there is already a Subway and a GO line.

And also again, no, they would not have voted to raise taxes to build anything on Finch. And your ridership estimates for those three stops can't be accurate.

 

[BurlOak]

And your ridership estimates for those three stops can't be accurate.

Did you look at the Report? The numbers were exaggerated, but not by that much.

Specifically, look at Figure 3.7. No numbers, but scaling:
Ionview = 800 ppdph (when elevated, I was actually proposing a station here.
Lebovic = 0 (not perceptible on chart).
Ferrand = 300 ppdph.

Ionview maybe had reasonable numbers - especially since Kennedy station is actually east of Kennedy.
Lebovic is very close (300m) to Warden, so not much of an inconvenience.
Ferrand is beside the DVP, so its catchment area is all west (or southwest) of the stop, meaning not too far from Don Mills.

Oops, I just realized original post referred to passengers per day. Maybe true for Lebovic, but not the others.

 

[rbt]

... that'll slow down the works for all commuters involved trying to use the Crosstown as an alternative to Bloor-Danforth;...

Why is this a concern? Specifically, why would we spend extra so people can avoid the Bloor-Danforth subway which still has plenty of capacity remaining (it purposefully runs fewer trains than Yonge to avoid overloading Yonge) and even more excess capacity when DRL redirects ridership away from the highest ridership point (Pape to Bloor)?

Seem a bit complaining the ferry to the island airport is too slow compared to the pedestrian tunnel; there's no reason for folks to avoid the pedestrian tunnel.

 

[Rainforest]

The point is moot. If it were mute, we would not hear from it any longer.

You are right of course. The point is moot but isn't mute. We will hear again and again that MOU was a superior solution that fell victim to the fight between Mayor Ford and his City Council opponents (even though that fight was mostly about Sheppard corridor).

Projects that never moved past the conception phase, stand in the shining glory of their initial low-balled cost estimates, not tarnished by subsequent escalations.

 

[BurlOak]

Realistically if Tory is Mayor there is no other plan, only modifications to the existing. He will certainly run on the "subway" and unfortunately his Smarttrack will keep anything from happening on the RT corridor. So "If" he is Mayor again Council should add the stop a Lawrence and request the Province to consider a provisional for a Smarttrack station at Ellesmere in the future.

Any further review or study would cause utter chaos in this City. Any Mayor who decides to going back to something similar to Ford/McGuinty, come up with some new idea, or attempt to revert back to a previous plan will see a major negative reaction. Not saying it cant happen here, it certainly could but I certainty dont want to see it play out nor do I care to see the delays and nonsense that would follow. Also I dont want to see a candidate touch Eglinton LRT design at this point either which might come from a Ford type. Just add a stop and move on is likely the best outcome here for everyone given the point were at.

• I agree that Eglinton won't be touched. Politically, there are not big complaints about the at-grade portion (likely because most people do not realize what is being built and what could have been built).
• The other bad thing about SmartTrack is that it also reinforces the idea that anything new is just a hollow campaign promise. Tory came up with his new plan and promised it would be up and running in 7 years. We're nearing the halfway point and the plan has been cut back, severely altered, and is not even close to having construction started. Basically because to Tory, nobody will dare try coming up with an alternate transit plan.
• I could see an election campaign to enhance the B-D extension (SSE). Either extending the line to Sheppard, or adding a stop at Lawrence, or both.
• There are only two ways that a new plan can be implemented.

1. Promise to support the SSE, then the day after the election come up with a new plan. The only ones with the nerve to be this dishonest are the Liberals, and the past 10 years shows us they are not interested in finding the actual best solution.
2. Promise to support the SSE, with a caveat that value engineering will be performed to ensure that taxpayers are receiving value for money. The danger is that it may be viewed as not supporting Scarborough, and thus may not be adopted by any cautious party. The upside is that it grants license for a party to introduce something better.

If something new is somehow introduced, the key would be to begin construction as soon as possible, so that definite progress is seen by the next election. This means that whoever introduces this will have to have a good idea of the routing so that consultations, EA, etc. can begin almost immediately. This will not be easy, as opponents will want to torpedo any new plan because it will make many of the current players look awfully bad if the new party finds a better, cheaper, faster to construct way of providing rapid transit to Scarborough. As in the past, I would expect Scarborough residents to be the most reasonable and the opposition would come from the left Councillors or any Liberal MPPs who would be returned to Legislature.

 

[OneCity]

• I agree that Eglinton won't be touched. Politically, there are not big complaints about the at-grade portion (likely because most people do not realize what is being built and what could have been built).
• The other bad thing about SmartTrack is that it also reinforces the idea that anything new is just a hollow campaign promise. Tory came up with his new plan and promised it would be up and running in 7 years. We're nearing the halfway point and the plan has been cut back, severely altered, and is not even close to having construction started. Basically because to Tory, nobody will dare try coming up with an alternate transit plan.
• I could see an election campaign to enhance the B-D extension (SSE). Either extending the line to Sheppard, or adding a stop at Lawrence, or both.
• There are only two ways that a new plan can be implemented.

1. Promise to support the SSE, then the day after the election come up with a new plan. The only ones with the nerve to be this dishonest are the Liberals, and the past 10 years shows us they are not interested in finding the actual best solution.
2. Promise to support the SSE, with a caveat that value engineering will be performed to ensure that taxpayers are receiving value for money. The danger is that it may be viewed as not supporting Scarborough, and thus may not be adopted by any cautious party. The upside is that it grants license for a party to introduce something better.

If something new is somehow introduced, the key would be to begin construction as soon as possible, so that definite progress is seen by the next election. This means that whoever introduces this will have to have a good idea of the routing so that consultations, EA, etc. can begin almost immediately. This will not be easy, as opponents will want to torpedo any new plan because it will make many of the current players look awfully bad if the new party finds a better, cheaper, faster to construct way of providing rapid transit to Scarborough. As in the past, I would expect Scarborough residents to be the most reasonable and the opposition would come from the left Councillors or any Liberal MPPs who would be returned to Legislature.

The issue with any new plan (or old for the matter) for the SSE will require a reset and a new Environmental Assessment. Were talking adding basically 5 years again at best and thats if we reverted to the old LRT. Thats why i say only modifications to this current plan like adding stops is possible to keep things moving on any reasonable schedule.

Any reset will cause insane chaos at City Hall and far too many Politicians from all levels, on many Political stripes have their hands in this and no one is going to want to be responsible for starting over at this stage. The SSE is much safer than the Eglinton East as the Provincial Conservatives and a guy like Ford who has a 20-30% voter base just for sneezing (should he decide to run), have not shown any commitment toward LRT yet. But both heavily support the SSE.

Tory himself supported the design for the Lawrence stop, and I believe if we see a subway supportive candidate wins the next election a few apathetic opponents near the middle will likely vote back in the Lawrence stop just to salvage the line. The vote was close the last time around and should get some attention at election time. At this stage the best scenario is Tory wins, they add the stop and or extend to Sheppard. Leave Smarttrack on Finch and build the Eglinton East. Even if its not grade separated and has too many stops it will still be a very useful local line

 

[BurlOak]

The issue with any new plan (or old for the matter) for the SSE will require a reset and a new Environmental Assessment. Were talking adding basically 5 years again at best and thats if we reverted to the old LRT. Thats why i say only modifications to this current plan like adding stops is possible to keep things moving on any reasonable schedule.

Any reset will cause insane chaos at City Hall and far too many Politicians from all levels, on many Political stripes have their hands in this and no one is going to want to be responsible for starting over at this stage. The SSE is much safer than the Eglinton East as the Provincial Conservatives and a guy like Ford who has a 20-30% voter base just for sneezing (should he decide to run), have not shown any commitment toward LRT yet. But both heavily support the SSE.

Tory himself supported the design for the Lawrence stop, and I believe if we see a subway supportive candidate wins the next election a few apathetic opponents near the middle will likely vote back in the Lawrence stop just to salvage the line. The vote was close the last time around and should get some attention at election time. At this stage the best scenario is Tory wins, they add the stop and or extend to Sheppard. Leave Smarttrack on Finch and build the Eglinton East. Even if its not grade separated and has too many stop it still a very useful local line

What is the minimum length of EA if the government actually wanted to build something. I'd think less than 2 years.
We know from history that if the goal is to drag out the EA to defer the large construction costs, then the EA can take a verrrrry lonnnnnnng tiiiiiiiiime.

 

[OneCity]

What is the minimum length of EA if the government actually wanted to build something. I'd think less than 2 years.
We know from history that if the goal is to drag out the EA to defer the large construction costs, then the EA can take a verrrrry lonnnnnnng tiiiiiiiiime.

Its not just the EA itself. Its the process of agreeing on a new plan, the process to tender, the process to delay for political purposes. The process is just not friendly for even the smallest of changes.

For a good example take the Eglinton East LRT. The is one the most simplistic EA's as the line is almost an exact duplicate of the SMLRT. But because there are some items that have change slightly since 2009 and some details that require a bit more attention in the design. I really couldn't imagine the SSE being cancelled and the aftermath that would ensue.

 

[syn]

I don't know how many times this needs to be said before it sinks in, there were no plans or anything going on with the Scarborough Subway when council decide to reject Ford's MOU. The choice was between the Finch, Eglinton Sheppard and SLRT extension LRT's or blowing all that money on Eglinton between Don Mills and Kennedy. It would have cost three LRT lines to save only a few minutes of travel time to a location where there is already a Subway and a GO line.

Exactly.

It's kind of hard to believe people are suggesting the city missed out by not working with Ford lol.

Ford is the one who screwed up by not working with the city and actual transit experts. That's why he was ultimately overruled on almost everything.

 

[aquateam]

I don't know how many times this needs to be said before it sinks in, there were no plans or anything going on with the Scarborough Subway when council decide to reject Ford's MOU. The choice was between the Finch, Eglinton Sheppard and SLRT extension LRT's or blowing all that money on Eglinton between Don Mills and Kennedy. It would have cost three LRT lines to save only a few minutes of travel time to a location where there is already a Subway and a GO line.

Yes, at the time, which is why I agreed with you 100% at the time. But if the combined Eglinton LRT-SRT was built, then there would have been no SSE. Knowing now what happened with the SSE and its $4 billion price tag, in retrospect the MOU was a better solution. Once the MOU fell through, the SSE was the result, whether or not it was on the table at the time.

Connecting the SRT to Eglinton LRT gave a one-transfer ride from Scarborough to Downtown. Rather than spend $4 billion on the SSE to eliminate a transfer, you could have just connected the two lines for a one-transfer ride downtown. Grade-separating a section of the line (which could be elevated instead of tunneled) is much better than abandoning an existing functioning piece of transit infrastructure and building a separate parallel route that goes to the exact same place in the most expensive way possible.

Why is this a concern? Specifically, why would we spend extra so people can avoid the Bloor-Danforth subway which still has plenty of capacity remaining (it purposefully runs fewer trains than Yonge to avoid overloading Yonge) and even more excess capacity when DRL redirects ridership away from the highest ridership point (Pape to Bloor)?

That's a bit apocryphal, service on Bloor definitely isn't purposely limited to prevent Yonge overcrowding. Limiting service on line 2 would be even worse for Bloor-Yonge because when you cram more people into a given train by reducing the number of trains, that would result in larger crush pedestrian loads transferring at once (and more dangerous platform crowding).

 

[OneCity]

Exactly.

It's kind of hard to believe people are suggesting the city missed out by not working with Ford lol.

Ford is the one who screwed up by not working with the city and actual transit experts. That's why he was ultimately overruled on almost everything.

Transfer City for all its good, was not good enough. Isolating separate technologies before Scarborough Centre and before the Scarborough border on Sheppard after a subway stub which everyone is suppose to ignore, then the real kick in Bluffs came when the Province didn't Fund the SMLRT. I get how people outside wouldn't care but its pretty clear how the plan died on its own "expert" merits and was ripe for the taking Politically.

Im not hear to defend Ford, but when these are the "expert" plans. Its easy to see how a guy like that gets elected

 

[BurlOak]

Yes, at the time, which is why I agreed with you 100% at the time. But if the combined Eglinton LRT-SRT was built, then there would have been no SSE. Knowing now what happened with the SSE and its $4 billion price tag, in retrospect the MOU was a better solution. Once the MOU fell through, the SSE was the result, whether or not it was on the table at the time.

It may not have been on the table, but the unpopularity of the forced transfer was there for everyone to see and contributed to Ford being elected.

Exactly.

It's kind of hard to believe people are suggesting the city missed out by not working with Ford lol.

Ford is the one who screwed up by not working with the city and actual transit experts. That's why he was ultimately overruled on almost everything.

Ford worked with McGuinty and Metrolinx to come up with the combined plan. Transit experts at Metrolinx even did a Benefit Cost analysis and found it to be the best.
Ford worked more co-operatively with transit experts than David Miller, who forced the Transit City LRT on many routes.

Connecting the SRT to Eglinton LRT gave a one-transfer ride from Scarborough to Downtown. Rather than spend $4 billion on the SSE to eliminate a transfer, you could have just connected the two lines for a one-transfer ride downtown. Grade-separating a section of the line (which could be elevated instead of tunneled) is much better than abandoning an existing functioning piece of transit infrastructure and building a separate parallel route that goes to the exact same place in the most expensive way possible.

This is where it would have been beneficial for Council to work with Ford. Ford wanted to built transit away from cars, that also achieves cars away from transit. Council began to reconsider their priorities and were thinking that maybe the DRL would be the top priority. With this as the climate, a reasonable approach would have been to save money by elevation and transfer it to the DRL - a win for both sides.

 

[syn]

It may not have been on the table, but the unpopularity of the forced transfer was there for everyone to see and contributed to Ford being elected.
Ford worked with McGuinty and Metrolinx to come up with the combined plan. Transit experts at Metrolinx even did a Benefit Cost analysis and found it to be the best.
Ford worked more co-operatively with transit experts than David Miller, who forced the Transit City LRT on many routes.

Yes, one study, that found it to be the best, independent of other important factors. Implementing that plan meant no more funding for needed transit upgrades in other parts of the city (Finch, etc.), all to address a fictitious "War On The Car".

It's surprising at this point that people seem to be completely unaware that there's more to Toronto than just Scarborough.

Transfer City for all its good, was not good enough. Isolating separate technologies before Scarborough Centre and before the Scarborough border on Sheppard after a subway stub which everyone is suppose to ignore, then the real kick in Bluffs came when the Province didn't Fund the SMLRT. I get how people outside wouldn't care but its pretty clear how the plan died on its own "expert" merits and was ripe for the taking Politically.

Im not hear to defend Ford, but when these are the "expert" plans. Its easy to see how a guy like that gets elected

Plans devised by competent professionals aren't always going to appeal to everyone's fantasies. They're going to be based on actual facts and real data.

Ford's Scarborough 'plans' were just the opposite - vote buying fantasies that played on the idea that anything less than underground transit is some sort of crime against Scarborough, regardless of transit needs across the rest of the city.

Despite your obsessing over transfers being some sort of evil, they're common practice across all transit systems. People have to transfer from subways to streetcars and buses all the time. A transfer in Scarborough isn't a big deal, or at least it wasn't until Ford pushed the fiction that it was somehow lesser transit and that Scarborough residents 'deserved' a subway because downtown has one.

This has been pointed out to you countless times but of course, it will be ignored.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Calm down...tram city is being built in other parts of Scarborough