Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

To carry the above farther - look at a subway map with grade separated Eglinton. The DRL long (or medium to Eglinton would have been anobrain

That is why I say those who opposed the connected SRT / Eglinton plan were also opposing the DRL long.

The other thing that was obvious was that with Ford wanting grade separated transit (transit out of the way of cars), we could have got cars out of the way of transit. The time was ripe to save costs on Eglinton (i.e. Elevated), in exchange for a DRL.
Ford happy since nothing interferes with cars.
Council happy since cost of combined solution is lowered and #1 Priority (DRL) is built.

Which brings us to point number 2. Council decided it was more important to defeat Ford at all costs. The expensive 1 stop subway extension, and the necessity of Tory to come up with a new transit idea (SmartTrack) to correct the Scarborough "snub" are the costs of those decisions that were made 5 years ago.

 

[Rainforest]

Kind of sad, that was the plan under Ford. I hated the guy when he was Mayor and thought the plan was dumb at the time. but looking at the current $6 billion Eglinton line that stops at every red light + $4 billion one-stop extension to STC now I realize how good it was. Make it ICTS to save on tunnelling costs and elevate sections of Eglinton east instead of burying it and you'd end up with enough savings to make a down payment on the DRL.

Below is the Metrolinx ridership projections for a combined SRT + Eglinton grade separated line... ridership jumps from 2700 to 9500 pphpd.

IMO, not a great solution either. The cost would certainly escalate, while there would be major capacity problems both on Eglinton East approaching Yonge, and on Yonge between Eglinton and Bloor.

 

[Rainforest]

Perhaps a similar solution could work, but only with a complete overhaul of the transit construction order:

Phase 1: a high-capacity line, either ICTS or fully grade-separate LRT, is built on a weird route. One terminus is at Don Mills & Eglinton, basically dangling there with no other high-order transit connections. From there, the line runs east along Eglinton to Kennedy, then north along the Uxbridge sub (current SRT route), then to STC, Progress Campus, and Sheppard.

At this point, only the section north of Kennedy is well used, but the existence of Don Mills - Kennedy section gives assurance to the Scarborough folks that they will not be stuck with a stub line this time.

The section of Eglinton line from Don Mills to Mt Dennis is deferred, and that leaves quite a bit of money for Relief Line's downpayment.

Phase 2: Relief line is built between downtown and Don Mills & Eglinton, enabling a transfer from the Scarborough Eglinton line. Now, the Don Mills - Kennedy section is very well used.

Phase 3: Eglinton line is extended west, to Mt Dennis and beyond.

This is starting to look like a fantasy map though ..

 

[OneCity]

Perhaps a similar solution could work, but only with a complete overhaul of the transit construction order:

Phase 1: a high-capacity line, either ICTS or fully grade-separate LRT, is built on a weird route. One terminus is at Don Mills & Eglinton, basically dangling there with no other high-order transit connections. From there, the line runs east along Eglinton to Kennedy, then north along the Uxbridge sub (current SRT route), then to STC, Progress Campus, and Sheppard.

At this point, only the section north of Kennedy is well used, but the existence of Don Mills - Kennedy section gives assurance to the Scarborough folks that they will not be stuck with a stub line this time.

The section of Eglinton line from Don Mills to Mt Dennis is deferred, and that leaves quite a bit of money for Relief Line's downpayment.

Phase 2: Relief line is built between downtown and Don Mills & Eglinton, enabling a transfer from the Scarborough Eglinton line. Now, the Don Mills - Kennedy section is very well used.

Phase 3: Eglinton line is extended west, to Mt Dennis and beyond.

This is starting to look like a fantasy map though ..

Realistically if Tory is Mayor there is no other plan, only modifications to the existing. He will certainly run on the "subway" and unfortunately his Smarttrack will keep anything from happening on the RT corridor. So "If" he is Mayor again Council should add the stop a Lawrence and request the Province to consider a provisional for a Smarttrack station at Ellesmere in the future.

Any further review or study would cause utter chaos in this City. Any Mayor who decides to going back to something similar to Ford/McGuinty, come up with some new idea, or attempt to revert back to a previous plan will see a major negative reaction. Not saying it cant happen here, it certainly could but I certainty dont want to see it play out nor do I care to see the delays and nonsense that would follow. Also I dont want to see a candidate touch Eglinton LRT design at this point either which might come from a Ford type. Just add a stop and move on is likely the best outcome here for everyone given the point were at.

 

[syn]

To carry the above farther - look at a subway map with grade separated Eglinton. The DRL long (or medium to Eglinton would have been anobrain

That is why I say those who opposed the connected SRT / Eglinton plan were also opposing the DRL long.

The other thing that was obvious was that with Ford wanting grade separated transit (transit out of the way of cars), we could have got cars out of the way of transit. The time was ripe to save costs on Eglinton (i.e. Elevated), in exchange for a DRL.
Ford happy since nothing interferes with cars.
Council happy since cost of combined solution is lowered and #1 Priority (DRL) is built.

Which brings us to point number 2. Council decided it was more important to defeat Ford at all costs. The expensive 1 stop subway extension, and the necessity of Tory to come up with a new transit idea (SmartTrack) to correct the Scarborough "snub" are the costs of those decisions that were made 5 years ago.

Are you referring to the Ford plan that would've eliminated 19 stops and doubled the budget??

 

[OneCity]

Are you referring to the Ford plan that would've eliminated 19 stops and doubled the budget??

19 stops? I wasn't aware the Eglinton East (SMLRT back then) was ever funded at that time? Not the first time I've seen that stated here. Any truth to it?

 

[BurlOak]

Are you referring to the Ford plan that would've eliminated 19 stops and doubled the budget??

Which 19?

Ferrand, Swift, Pharmacy, Lebovic, Ionview, Midland, McCowan, Centennial, Sheppard. That's 9. Am I missing any?

 

[OneCity]

Which 19?

Ferrand, Swift, Pharmacy, Lebovic, Ionview, Midland, McCowan, Centennial, Sheppard. That's 9. Am I missing any?

Those 9 would have existed under Ford. The statement was he removed 19. I can only assume it was the SMLRT which was to my knowledge completely unfunded.

 

[aquateam]

IMO, not a great solution either. The cost would certainly escalate, while there would be major capacity problems both on Eglinton East approaching Yonge, and on Yonge between Eglinton and Bloor.

It would aggravate Yonge line capacity issues between Eglinton and Bloor but it would improve the Bloor-Yonge situation. I don't see how it would have worse capacity problems on Eglinton though: it's grade separated so train frequencies aren't limited by the at-grade sections. Vancouver's Canada line has tiny platforms, smaller than Eglinton would have, but still has a design capacity of 15 000 pphpd.

Perhaps a similar solution could work, but only with a complete overhaul of the transit construction order:

Phase 1: a high-capacity line, either ICTS or fully grade-separate LRT, is built on a weird route. One terminus is at Don Mills & Eglinton, basically dangling there with no other high-order transit connections. From there, the line runs east along Eglinton to Kennedy, then north along the Uxbridge sub (current SRT route), then to STC, Progress Campus, and Sheppard.

At this point, only the section north of Kennedy is well used, but the existence of Don Mills - Kennedy section gives assurance to the Scarborough folks that they will not be stuck with a stub line this time.

The section of Eglinton line from Don Mills to Mt Dennis is deferred, and that leaves quite a bit of money for Relief Line's downpayment.

Phase 2: Relief line is built between downtown and Don Mills & Eglinton, enabling a transfer from the Scarborough Eglinton line. Now, the Don Mills - Kennedy section is very well used.

Phase 3: Eglinton line is extended west, to Mt Dennis and beyond.

This is starting to look like a fantasy map though ..

I don't really see a need for the convoluted construction sequence to meet a set spend rate or to avoid connecting people to Yonge. Just postpone the Finch LRT à la Sheppard LRT (aka redirect funding and put into limbo), and get shovels in the ground for the DRL before Eglinton is ready to open.

Which 19?

Ferrand, Swift, Pharmacy, Lebovic, Ionview, Midland, McCowan, Centennial, Sheppard. That's 9. Am I missing any?

I think you're also missing the umpteen stops related to each intersection that the at-grade portion would have to stop at.

 

[Sakraycore]

So I recently took the subway to City Hall to watch the Canada 150 fireworks, and getting from STC to city hall via subway takes about 1 hour. It's a little bit long tbh, but sort of acceptable considering I don't go there very often.

While I'm not big on support for the SSE, I am even more against a half-assed LRT. Either do nothing or build something properly that will make the trip from STC to downtown seamless. I guess the SRT is sort of acceptable during the summer....during winter it's much worse though, good thing nothing important happens in winter months.

 

[BurlOak]

It would aggravate Yonge line capacity issues between Eglinton and Bloor but it would improve the Bloor-Yonge situation. I don't see how it would have worse capacity problems on Eglinton though: it's grade separated so train frequencies aren't limited by the at-grade sections. Vancouver's Canada line has tiny platforms, smaller than Eglinton would have, but still has a design capacity of 15 000 pphpd.

Exactly,

• Dumping passengers at Y-E will reduce crowding at Y-B.
• Thus, dwell time at Y-B will go down and Y-E will go up.
• As long as Y-E transfers do not exceed the Y-B transfers, the reduced dwell time at Y-B will allow for more trains on Yonge and will increase its capacity (although not likely by much).
• It does mean that passengers would have to be on a near capacity train for a longer time.

 

[APTA-2048]

Which 19?

Ferrand, Swift, Pharmacy, Lebovic, Ionview, Midland, McCowan, Centennial, Sheppard. That's 9. Am I missing any?

What about the whole Finch West line.

 

[OneCity]

What about the whole Finch West line.

That was the causality of the prioritizing complete Sheppard subway. Im a supporter of the LRT on Finch as I am on Eglinton East but not at the expense of poor connectivity for Scarborough Centre or Scarborough commuters on Sheppard. Also I believe grade separation made more sense for the LRT run to Kennedy. Of course it costs more to do pay attention to details instead of a blanket approach. And unfortunately its now likely going to cost of much more to provide much less, mostly due to this initial refusal to work with anything Ford and even now the refusal of some Councillors to move on from this blanket concept.

Wasn't my preference but Ford had a good plan here. As for as Tory goes the only hope now is "if" they can add a stop at Lawrence, and fund the Eglinton East as the "package" it will leave a pretty good legacy. (cost of the McCowan subway aside) But that remains to be seen in this Political climate and anything less is very unfortunate.

 

[APTA-2048]

That was the causality of the prioritizing complete Sheppard subway. Im a supporter of the LRT on Finch as I am on Eglinton East but not at the expense of poor connectivity for Scarborough Centre or Scarborough residents on Sheppard.

So "I've got mine. F everybody else"? Are you not doing the same thing you claim others are doing to you?

By the way, there was no guarantee anything was going to be built on Sheppard. Taking the funding away from Shepard meant Shepard would get nothing. But I guess that's moot since that has happened now anyway and Sheppard may indeed get nothing.

 

[OneCity]

So "I've got mine. F everybody else"? Are you not doing the same thing you claim others are doing to you?

By the way, there was no guarantee anything was going to be built on Sheppard. Taking the funding away from Shepard meant Shepard would get nothing. But I guess that's moot since that has happened now anyway and Sheppard may indeed get nothing.

No not at all with the "I've got mine. F everybody else"? That's not even a reasonable statement to support a flawed one size fits all transit approach that also didn't provide coverage to "everyone else". "Funded" Transit City did cover a bit more area but missed paying attention to some key details which mattered to commuters and residents. This was ripe for the taking Politically from the time Miller gambled against the initial request from Scarborough council for a subway extension early on in his first term.

Even Transit City didn't fund the Eglinton East (SMRLT) and I could argue finishing that line was more important than Sheppard. And in many respects that same "I've got mine. F everybody else" rhetoric could be used here and be used by those asking for the subway against the Councillors who oppose in subway ridings. There is no reason to go this route anyway, we needed and still do need to finalize a better plan which supports these details which are now fully out of the bag and then move forward to fund it and build for everybody else. I prefer building a better foundation before short sighted plans with more immediate stops. Again Ford's plan wasn't my preference, but he certainly had the democratic support to do better than the Transit City plan

Sheppard will not get nothing as you claim. They just get nothing for now, which is the right thing to do rather than a short-sighted connection to the subway stub. They will more than likely get a subway in the future which will connect to SCC and likely be part of the western extension. This is a better long term plan given the fact there is no appetite to convert the stub to LRT. Whether the support here is properly reported or not people do heavily support this line in Scarborough and the LRT is never coming back in the old form. I would expect we could see it on the East side running thru Malvern either from Eglinton East and or from SCC. Completely understand if you don't have to agree with me or this approach. All we can do is vote with what's on the table. But when the debate rolls around for Sheppard to get transit again in 10-20 years, this is undoubtedly what the push will be for if its not already pretty much decided already to some extent Politically. Not having a proper funding plan for growth and expansion is no excuse for these blanket plans which I doubt well ever have to see again.