Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[innsertnamehere]

sadly the city doesn't choose where to locate major malls, which is what scarborough chose to anchor it's "downtown" (the wrong decision, just like todays)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Instead of all this transit drama, wouldn't it be easier and more cost effective just to relocate Scarborough Town Centre closer to Yonge/Bloor?

I know you weren't being serious, but I'm genuinely curious about how much it would cost. Rebuilding STC downtown wouldn't be too expensive. I'm sure you could even physically pick up and move many of the surrounding buildings downtown as well for less than the cost of the subway.

sadly the city doesn't choose where to locate major malls, which is what scarborough chose to anchor it's "downtown" (the wrong decision, just like todays)

The city can't unilaterally choose where to build a mall, but they can use zoning laws to affect where they are built.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't think Metrolinx has an issue with an elevated structure on Eglinton Street East, as long as it's not connected to the SRT. They didn't seem too concerned about it during the subway vs. LRT debate of 2011.

I do not think Metrolinx would be stupid enough to think that a grade-separated Eglinton line (or any Eglinton line) NOT connected to SRT would be a good idea.

That is similar to the cost cutting idea I had.
- Since building a station under the existing Eglinton and Eglinton West stations represents a high cost, why not;

• Run the line from Mt. Dennis to just West of Eglinton West.
• A short pedestrian transfer would get you from the next segment from just east of Eglinton West to just west of Yonge/Eglinton.
• Another short pedestrain transfer would get you to the segment from just east of Yonge/Eglinton to Kennedy.
• Finally, a last transfer would get you onto the SRT to complete the trip to STC.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I do not think Metrolinx would be stupid enough to think that a grade-separated Eglinton line (or any Eglinton line) NOT connected to SRT would be a good idea.

I didn't mean not connected at all. To be more specific:
If Eglinton East was elevated and if there were concerns about Yonge capacity, I could see Metrolinx connecting the SRT and ECLRT via a non-revenue track. This means that the lines would be separate, but both could share the same yards and other facilities, while artificially reducing Yonge bound traffic. When the DRL is built to Don Mills @ Eglinton (hopefully sometime soon), merging the SRT with the ECLRT would be virtually cost free.

That is similar to the cost cutting idea I had.
- Since building a station under the existing Eglinton and Eglinton West stations represents a high cost, why not;

• Run the line from Mt. Dennis to just West of Eglinton West.
• A short pedestrian transfer would get you from the next segment from just east of Eglinton West to just west of Yonge/Eglinton.
• Another short pedestrain transfer would get you to the segment from just east of Yonge/Eglinton to Kennedy.
• Finally, a last transfer would get you onto the SRT to complete the trip to STC.

Great for cutting costs, not so great for building a network.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

How about option #4. Connect the SRT to an elevated Eglintion LRT through Scarborough. This has all the benefits of the above options for a cost of a few hundred million. Why this has never been considered is beyond me.

I'm sorry but this attitude right here is everything that's wrong with transit planning in Toronto. We have a fully-approved, fully-funded LRT plan for Eglinton already. Now is the time to build that plan, not to replace it with a new plan that will require new funding and new approvals and lead to new delays. We are seeing the consequences of reckless last-minute changes east of Kennedy and your great plan is to fuck things up west of Kennedy too.

Over and over again Toronto lets the perfect be the enemy of the good. "Give us our ideal transit line or nothing," we shout. And sure enough, nothing is what we get. The Transit City LRTs may not be perfect but they are ready to go. The money is committed. The EAs are done. If we don't move forward then we are just going to be another chapter in some future transit nerd's ebook of missed opportunities.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Too many schizophrenic voices contradicting and impeding each other.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm sorry but this attitude right here is everything that's wrong with transit planning in Toronto. We have a fully-approved, fully-funded LRT plan for Eglinton already. Now is the time to build that plan, not to replace it with a new plan that will require new funding and new approvals and lead to new delays. We are seeing the consequences of reckless last-minute changes east of Kennedy and your great plan is to fuck things up west of Kennedy too.

Over and over again Toronto lets the perfect be the enemy of the good. "Give us our ideal transit line or nothing," we shout. And sure enough, nothing is what we get. The Transit City LRTs may not be perfect but they are ready to go. The money is committed. The EAs are done. If we don't move forward then we are just going to be another chapter in some future transit nerd's ebook of missed opportunities.

Politicians have suggested every ridiculous idea, from one stop subway extensions, to unnecessary subways all across Eglinton. Everything but the only somewhat logical idea: elevating Eglinton East. I can't speak for Burl, but I think he was just say that as long as we're bickering about Eglinton, someone might as well propose elevating the eastern portion of the line and connecting it to the SRT. Makes sense to me.

 

[gweed123]

I didn't mean not connected at all. To be more specific:
If Eglinton East was elevated and if there were concerns about Yonge capacity, I could see Metrolinx connecting the SRT and ECLRT via a non-revenue track. This means that the lines would be separate, but both could share the same yards and other facilities, while artificially reducing Yonge bound traffic. When the DRL is built to Don Mills @ Eglinton (hopefully sometime soon), merging the SRT with the ECLRT would be virtually cost free.

Here's the thing though: elevating Eglinton East wouldn't really increase pressure on Yonge, it would just change where the pressure is applied. Right now, ~90% of those getting off the SRT at Kennedy are transferring to the subway, many of them destined for Bloor-Yonge. If Eglinton East is built at-grade and kept separate, it would maybe be 30% LRT, 60% subway. If it's elevated and interlined, it would be maybe 60% LRT, 30% subway. If they are taking Yonge southbound to the CBD, whether they board at Eglinton or at Bloor is of little difference.

Of course, opening up capacity on Bloor-Danforth could lead to increased ridership there, but that's a secondary effect, and would probably be pretty minor.

I'm sorry but this attitude right here is everything that's wrong with transit planning in Toronto. We have a fully-approved, fully-funded LRT plan for Eglinton already. Now is the time to build that plan, not to replace it with a new plan that will require new funding and new approvals and lead to new delays. We are seeing the consequences of reckless last-minute changes east of Kennedy and your great plan is to fuck things up west of Kennedy too.

Over and over again Toronto lets the perfect be the enemy of the good. "Give us our ideal transit line or nothing," we shout. And sure enough, nothing is what we get. The Transit City LRTs may not be perfect but they are ready to go. The money is committed. The EAs are done. If we don't move forward then we are just going to be another chapter in some future transit nerd's ebook of missed opportunities.

But elevating Eglinton East wouldn't necessarily be a show-stopper. Tunnelling Eglinton would continue unimpeded, as would building the Scarborough LRT. The middle section would probably see a delay of a couple of years, but isn't that worth it to do it right the first time? The Sheppard Subway and the Scarborough RT are perfect examples of what happens when you don't do things right the first time.

I do definitely see your point, that we shouldn't be doing wholesale scrapping of transit projects. But there have been many design changes on Eglinton already, some of them pretty significant changes. It's not set in stone, and it's within Metrolinx' right to modify the design parameters if it sees fit to do so.

Certainly in comparison to seeing the entire SLRT project shelved for a year or more, making a modification to Eglinton East is the lesser of 3 evils. If everything to do with the Eglinton-Scarborough corridor was set in stone and locked in, I would agree, let it be. But things couldn't be more in flux right now.

Politicians have suggested every ridiculous idea, from one stop subway extensions, to unnecessary subways all across Eglinton. Everything but the only somewhat logical idea: elevating Eglinton East. I can't speak for Burl, but I think he was just say that as long as we're bickering about Eglinton, someone might as well propose elevating the eastern portion of the line and connecting it to the SRT. Makes sense to me.

Exactly. Everything is in total flux right now, so might as well suggest a change that actually makes sense, and one that would minimize the amount of work that would need to be thrown out in favour of something else. The previous status-quo was sub-par, the current plan as of yesterday was unrealistic given the funding constraints, and the plan as of today is just plain bad. Ergo, an incremental improvement on the previous status quo should be the logical choice.

I sincerely hope that at some point, someone, somewhere floats this as a legitimate alternative to what is out there right now, because if explained properly, it would alleviate nearly all the concerns on both sides of the issue.

 

[BurlOak]

I'm sorry but this attitude right here is everything that's wrong with transit planning in Toronto. We have a fully-approved, fully-funded LRT plan for Eglinton already. Now is the time to build that plan, not to replace it with a new plan that will require new funding and new approvals and lead to new delays. We are seeing the consequences of reckless last-minute changes east of Kennedy and your great plan is to fuck things up west of Kennedy too.

Over and over again Toronto lets the perfect be the enemy of the good. "Give us our ideal transit line or nothing," we shout. And sure enough, nothing is what we get. The Transit City LRTs may not be perfect but they are ready to go. The money is committed. The EAs are done. If we don't move forward then we are just going to be another chapter in some future transit nerd's ebook of missed opportunities.

I think the attitude that "we refuse to budge from the David Miller LRT vision for Eglinton despite the fact that the public rejected it in the 2010 election" that has caused the biggest problems in the past 3 years. After the election, someone at TTC or Metrolinx (since I think even the Mayor has stated that he is not a transit engineer) should have addressed Ford's biggest concerns - the transfer, the transit/passenger car interaction, and possibly the shutdown - and there would have been no delay at all.

 

[Allandale25]

Not sure if this has been posted here yet but here's a great map my friend Ev Delen (twitter: @EvDelen) did of the various Scarborough LRT/subway proposals.

Here's an image of the map. Click on the link above for the full version and feel free to send Ev any feedback.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

But elevating Eglinton East wouldn't necessarily be a show-stopper. Tunnelling Eglinton would continue unimpeded, as would building the Scarborough LRT. The middle section would probably see a delay of a couple of years, but isn't that worth it to do it right the first time?

My worry is that every year of delay means several new opportunities for derailment. Think of how many transit debates we've had in the couple of years since Ford became mayor. The original Transit City plan got delayed "for a few years", and now it barely even exists. I mean if the provincial government changes during one of these delays the whole line could just be straight up cancelled.

The Sheppard Subway and the Scarborough RT are perfect examples of what happens when you don't do things right the first time.

Fair enough on both those examples, but I think the SRT is also an example of the dangers posed by reopening transit plans. Scarborough was on track to have an LRT network until the province decided to "do things right" with ICTS technology. We have been paying for that particular flip flop for a good 30 years. Grade separating Eglinton all the way to Kennedy isn't a bad idea, but if you can open that part of the plan then you can open any part of the plan. We could see technology changes, or stations dropped on the central line, or creative provincial accounting that effectively amounts to a budget cut, or maybe even a "Phase 1" with a "temporary" terminal at Don Mills while the east end is getting sorted out.

We have a bird in the hand with some of these lines. There ain't nothing but trouble waiting for us in the bush.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

I think the attitude that "we refuse to budge from the David Miller LRT vision for Eglinton despite the fact that the public rejected it in the 2010 election" that has caused the biggest problems in the past 3 years. After the election, someone at TTC or Metrolinx (since I think even the Mayor has stated that he is not a transit engineer) should have addressed Ford's biggest concerns - the transfer, the transit/passenger car interaction, and possibly the shutdown - and there would have been no delay at all.

Uh they did meet his concerns, remember? They put Finch and Sheppard on hold as soon as Ford was elected and dumped all their money into a continuous grade-separated LRT along Eglinton and the SRT alignment, and the new changes threw off the previous construction timelines. It was changing plans that caused that delay, not sticking to them.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Gweed, Tiger, Burl, Alvin, insert, anyone: How much would it cost to elevate the Eglinton East/SRT and run it through? Can't that be a compromise? Won't that cost less then 1 billion?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Gweed, Tiger, Burl, Alvin, insert, anyone: How much would it cost to elevate the Eglinton East/SRT and run it through? Can't that be a compromise? Won't that cost less then 1 billion?

Assuming a portal at Leslie and a cost of $41 Million/km, we're looking at just below $300 Million for the new elevated structures. Hooking it up to the SRT will add a few million more to the cost. Not a bad price in my opinion.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

But elevating Eglinton East wouldn't necessarily be a show-stopper. Tunnelling Eglinton would continue unimpeded, as would building the Scarborough LRT. The middle section would probably see a delay of a couple of years, but isn't that worth it to do it right the first time? The Sheppard Subway and the Scarborough RT are perfect examples of what happens when you don't do things right the first time.

Exactly. Most of these last minute modifications to the line have been ridiculous. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't take action when we do see room for genuine improvement. Just about everyone who cares sees that the elevating the eastern portion would be a wise decision and the the cost would be relatively little. If we don't elevate I guarantee that 10 years down the road we'll be cursing ourselves for not elevating it. As you said, we don't want another Sheppard disaster on our hands.

My worry is that every year of delay means several new opportunities for derailment. Think of how many transit debates we've had in the couple of years since Ford became mayor. The original Transit City plan got delayed "for a few years", and now it barely even exists. I mean if the provincial government changes during one of these delays the whole line could just be straight up cancelled.



Fair enough on both those examples, but I think the SRT is also an example of the dangers posed by reopening transit plans. Scarborough was on track to have an LRT network until the province decided to "do things right" with ICTS technology. We have been paying for that particular flip flop for a good 30 years. Grade separating Eglinton all the way to Kennedy isn't a bad idea, but if you can open that part of the plan then you can open any part of the plan. We could see technology changes, or stations dropped on the central line, or creative provincial accounting that effectively amounts to a budget cut, or maybe even a "Phase 1" with a "temporary" terminal at Don Mills while the east end is getting sorted out.

We have a bird in the hand with some of these lines. There ain't nothing but trouble waiting for us in the bush.

Unlike the previous flip-flops you mentioned, elevating Eglinton would actually be beneficial. It comes down to whether or not we want to take the risk to do it today, or tear up the tracks 30 years from now to do it.