Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TOareaFan]

I strongly suspect the outcome will be #3. And that's exactly what the Province has wanted all along.

You truly believed that the province all along was trying to force the city into the LRT plan? So a politically astute Minister of the government made a pre by-election speach saying that anything other than subways was declaring the people as "second class" knowing that his plan was to deliver to those people something other than subways and knowing that shortly after that (in political terms) he would have to face those same people in a general election knowing his opponents would remind the people of Scarborough that the Minister thinks they are second class?

I am no Glenn Murray fan but I think he is way, way, smarter than that.

 

[drum118]

Is it absolutely vital to have an Ellesmere and Midland stop on the line to better service those under incommed areas, since this approximates the same route. Although shame about the lack of Sheppard connection.

Ellesmere has been on the cut list for a long time as it has next to no riders as well poor future increase in numbers. Even if the line was to be LRT, there was talk to remove it from the line.

Outside a few hours, stopping off to drop off/pickup no riders is a waste of everyone time . Midland is not that much more for ridership.

With this alinement, it still allows TTC to built the plan extension of the LRT route from STC and that still needs to happen.

A new Kennedy Station will have to be built which mean Warden will become the end terminal for a few years as well seeing shuttle buses service between the 2 stations

 

[Adjei]

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/04/city-hall-slams-shortened-scarborough-subway



He could have waited for September 30th for the Feds' answer. The Liberals are just playing politics and pissing off the Feds before they came with a proposition was just a way to sabotage city council's proposal and score cheap political points against the Federal government... Go luck asking anything from the Feds from now...

As for Glen Murray...he's a dick

The Feds aren't putting up any money. If they were we would have heard something by now. The only money they have indicated they would contribute is the money from the Sheppard LRT which is about $300 million.

 

[Solid Snake]

The Feds aren't putting up any money. If they were we would have heard something by now. The only money they have indicated they would contribute is the money from the Sheppard LRT which is about $300 million.

They aren't, I know but the city have to apply for the Infrastructure program where all 3 level of government would need to pay a third of the cost. That's the prime reason why the Provincial Liberals went down to 1.4B from 1.8 stating that they are paying for a third of the cost due to that program's existence and the city along with the Feds should figure out the rest.

Now to want to dismiss the Feds before they can give us an answer is just politics. If we go back to LRT, they will pay 1.8B

 

[Adjei]

They aren't, I know but the city have to apply for the Infrastructure program where all 3 level of government would need to pay a third of the cost. That's the prime reason why the Provincial Liberals went down to 1.4B from 1.8 stating that they are paying for a third of the cost due to that program's existence and the city along with the Feds should figure out the rest.

Now to want to dismiss the Feds before they can give us an answer is just politics. If we go back to LRT, they will pay 1.8B

Well this plan is not the final word. It's just showing what the provincial portion can build if. If Ottawa will contribute any money, we will find out by September 30th.

 

[Rainforest]

I don't see how they could. They have a signed deal in place to convert the SRT to LRT and extend it. I don't think the province can unilaterally amend that deal without taking over control of the city.

Legally speaking, the province probably can amend the deal unilaterally as long as the funding is 100% provincial. Canadian business law does not recognize deals where one of the two parties has no skin in the game. Basically, you can sign a notarized agreement with your friend that you give him $1000 as a gift and get nothing in return; then refuse to pay. If he takes you to court, the court will find that no binding agreement ever existed because he did not put any "consideration" into it.

Politically, if the City Council passes a new vote in favor of LRT and it gets a clear majority, it will be embarrassing for the provincial government to ignore it. In that case, Mr. Murray will likely be overwritten by the Premier.

If the Council splits into several factions as it often does; one demanding LRT, another supporting the Murray subway, the third pushing for subway to Sheppard, and some members pitching their own amendments; then the Province will go with the Murray plan and not bother getting a formal sign-off from the Council.

 

[Rainforest]

In any case, the Murray subway plan lacks in connectivity. Leaving a 1.7 km gap between the end of subway and the Sheppard LRT line is rather stupid.

One obvious way to fix it is to get the subway to Sheppard, but that requires more funding.

Another option is to start an LRT hub at STC, and add a branch of Sheppard LRT going there. If so, then the LRT hub should be included in the design of the new STC subway station, rather than added later as an after-thought. There isn't that much free space at STC, and squeezing the LRT hub in at a later date might be difficult / costly.

 

[BurlOak]

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/04/city-hall-slams-shortened-scarborough-subway

He could have waited for September 30th for the Feds' answer. The Liberals are just playing politics and pissing off the Feds before they came with a proposition was just a way to sabotage city council's proposal and score cheap political points against the Federal government... Go luck asking anything from the Feds from now...

As for Glen Murray...he's a dick

I just heard Doug Ford, Karen Stintz, and Minister Murray on AM640 - I am not sure if the audio is available but it would be an interesting listen.

My mother taught me that if you have nothing nice to say to about someone then say nothing at all. Karen and Doug made reasonable sense.

 

[nhui06]

They aren't, I know but the city have to apply for the Infrastructure program where all 3 level of government would need to pay a third of the cost. That's the prime reason why the Provincial Liberals went down to 1.4B from 1.8 stating that they are paying for a third of the cost due to that program's existence and the city along with the Feds should figure out the rest.

Now to want to dismiss the Feds before they can give us an answer is just politics. If we go back to LRT, they will pay 1.8B

I thought the reason for the 1.8 billion to 1.4 billion was because that $400 million was to be used to reconstruct Kennedy Station? They still need to pay for the reconstruction of Kennedy regardless of which plan, so really it is $1.8 billion for Subway plus Kennedy or $1.8 billion for LRT plus Kennedy

Ford tried to get money from the Feds, and the Province too tried, and no result. Feds can still pitch in (and Glen made that clear that if the Subway was to be extended, the City and Feds have to pay up). I am fine with what Glen said, since I too am fed up with these empty promises. It is true that the Province has put their money down and ready to build, whereas the other 2 have not. The time to negotiate and wait is over, so lets do it.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/04/city-hall-slams-shortened-scarborough-subway

He could have waited for September 30th for the Feds' answer. The Liberals are just playing politics and pissing off the Feds before they came with a proposition was just a way to sabotage city council's proposal and score cheap political points against the Federal government... Go luck asking anything from the Feds from now...

As for Glen Murray...he's a dick

Oh yeah, I'm sure the Feds were just dying to hand over a big sack of money before today.

The fact is this is a political failure on every level. Wynne reopened a closed debate so she could win a by-election and then stayed silent as Murray handled his file in the most abrasive and undiplomatic way possible, De Baeremaeker and his allies sacrificed a fully-funded shovel-ready rapid transit line in order to buy a few votes, the Mayor was so busy sloganeering that he didn't even know what the hell he was debating, and through it all the Feds stood back and let the country's largest city twist in the wind. Oh, and let's not forget the LRT would almost be done by now if McGuinty hadn't pushed construction back in the first place.

A fucking world-class debacle, that's what this is. Another in a long line of them.

 

[BurlOak]

Legally speaking, the province probably can amend the deal unilaterally as long as the funding is 100% provincial. Canadian business law does not recognize deals where one of the two parties has no skin in the game. Basically, you can sign a notarized agreement with your friend that you give him $1000 as a gift and get nothing in return; then refuse to pay. If he takes you to court, the court will find that no binding agreement ever existed because he did not put any "consideration" into it.

I would say that the City is donating land and not cash. I would expect that they do have enough skin in the game to have legal rights

 

[nhui06]

In any case, the Murray subway plan lacks in connectivity. Leaving a 1.7 km gap between the end of subway and the Sheppard LRT line is rather stupid.

One obvious way to fix it is to get the subway to Sheppard, but that requires more funding.

Another option is to start an LRT hub at STC, and add a branch of Sheppard LRT going there. If so, then the LRT hub should be included in the design of the new STC subway station, rather than added later as an after-thought. There isn't that much free space at STC, and squeezing the LRT hub in at a later date might be difficult / costly.

I have a feeling the next step is to extend the Sheppard Subway to Vic Park (maybe even Warden), then run BRT to STC via McCowan. Right now the LRT yard will cost $300 million and was to house both LRTs from Scarborough line (main resident) and Sheppard. Now there are no Scarb LRT, the LRT yard will be kind of a waste. Having a BRT from Vic Park to STC (follow the route of the popular 190), esp with the new Artic buses will make sense.

 

[nhui06]

I was listening to Radio 1010 and Murray mentioned there were actually 2 announcements today; one for the subway and one for the Pulse BRT? My understanding is that it takes passengers from Ajax to U of T Scarborough, but now is he saying it will go to Centennial College and to STC?

 

[Eug]

This is a brilliant politically tactical plan. I firmly believe that Murray has no intention of actually building this plan, it's just his way of showing what JUST Provincial funding can build in terms of a subway (hint: it's not very good). This will leave TO Council with 3 options:

1) Come up with an extra $1.4 billion in order to build the subway they originally wanted. This could come either through a miracle deal with the Feds, or (gasp) actually paying for transit themselves.

2) Go with the sub-par plan that Murray proposed today.

3) Return to the funded and mostly-designed LRT plan.

I strongly suspect the outcome will be #3. And that's exactly what the Province has wanted all along. This plan that was announced today is just the most politically savvy way of getting there, as it places all of the pressure on Council. They have to be the ones to say "no" to the subway, after they were the ones who said "yes". They look like the flip-floppers (which they definitely are), and the Liberals get to look like they were listening to the people, and that they were completely consistent.

I too think this is brilliant. This is a win-win situation for the provincial government. Honestly I think the Scarborough residents will be pleased by this for the most part, at least through the next election.

Why? It's a matter optics. They didn't want LRT, and the hail-mary subway plan didn't seem like it was going to fly. So now, the provincial government flies in and says "We'll build the damn thing ourselves because you guys just can't get your assets together." The LRT plan is still off the table so the option is just to build the subway in your option 2, or somehow there will be extra money brought in for your option 1 above, and the provincial government gets to claim it was they that pushed them to get that money.

 

[BurlOak]

This is a brilliant politically tactical plan. I firmly believe that Murray has no intention of actually building this plan, it's just his way of showing what JUST Provincial funding can build in terms of a subway (hint: it's not very good). This will leave TO Council with 3 options:

1) Come up with an extra $1.4 billion in order to build the subway they originally wanted. This could come either through a miracle deal with the Feds, or (gasp) actually paying for transit themselves.

2) Go with the sub-par plan that Murray proposed today.

3) Return to the funded and mostly-designed LRT plan.

I strongly suspect the outcome will be #3. And that's exactly what the Province has wanted all along. This plan that was announced today is just the most politically savvy way of getting there, as it places all of the pressure on Council. They have to be the ones to say "no" to the subway, after they were the ones who said "yes". They look like the flip-floppers (which they definitely are), and the Liberals get to look like they were listening to the people, and that they were completely consistent.

It seems that Mr. Ford has called your bluff by supporting option #2. Karen Stintz seemed to still be holding out for option #1.

How about option #4. Connect the SRT to an elevated Eglintion LRT through Scarborough. This has all the benefits of the above options for a cost of a few hundred million. Why this has never been considered is beyond me.