Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[amnesiajune]

Now if you want to argue that people living in apartment buildings shouldn't have to pay a de-facto commercial rate, sure, I'd agree with that

They don't pay a de facto commercial rate. They're in a property class called multi-residential, and Toronto is the only city that charges three times more for multi-residential than single-family homes and condos.

Can you tell me what additional services the house in the 416 gets? And every other house that is not on a subway nor in the downtown core (i.e. the vast majority of people living in Toronto)

Just to name a few...

- Free access to TPL, the largest neighbourhood-based library system in the world. That's not just books, but also includes free entry to a lot of attractions in the city.
- Reduced-price access to city programs.
- Access to proposed TTC discounts if they're a low-income household.
- Access to specialty programs in Toronto schools. The only one open to people out of the city is TOPS.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

They don't pay a de facto commercial rate. They're in a property class called multi-residential, and Toronto is the only city that charges three times more for multi-residential than single-family homes and condos.

Yes you've already mentioned it in a previous post and it's a well known fact, hence "defacto". I think we can all agree that's unfair (and it has been recognized as unfair even by the city).

AoD

 

[muller877]

Toronto's rates should be lower. The problem is, they are a lot more than 25-30% lower than some neighbouring munipalities:

Compare (excluding the provincial education tax, which is the same everywhere)
2016 Residential
Toronto - 0.499973%
Brampton - 0.915025% (183% higher)
Pickering - 1.078145 % (215% higher)

Some actual numbers from Mississauga (2016). The average assessed value is $564k and the rate is 0.874% = $4,900 in property taxes

In Toronto the average assessed value is around $550,000 and the rate is 0.688% = $3,800

But the average Toronto home has $6700 in land transfer tax. Assuming you live there for 10 years that's $670 added onto the property tax. Plus $300 per year (after "rebate") for a garbage tax (literally and figuratively). Total tax $4800.

So a Toronto resident is paying a whopping $100 less than in Mississauga. Why? We have to look at the budgets of Toronto vs Misssissuaga/Peel. Are we getting different services?

Looking at social services we are pretty much the same. Parks & rec the same. Mississauga/Peel has a $200 larger cost for roads/transit (Toronto has condos which require less road infrastructure). And core services Toronto saves about $100 (economies of scale).

So we get about the same services and pay about the same in Tax (Toronto just collects it in many ways).


Pickering: Virtually no condo's or apartments (more road costs) and a lower commercial tax base.

Average MPAC for a single family home in Toronto is $770k and Pickering is $560k. Pickering after including the additional $1000 in taxes that Toronto pays (land transfer tax and garbage tax) pays $900 more in property tax. The other difference may be due to the lack of commercial tax base in Pickering

Brampton. Again mostly single family and few apartments condos. I don't have the numbers but the Pickering example will be similar

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Debt servicing? It isn't about services, it's about municipal finances given the policy choices of the elected council. You can't really say - across a municipal border my neighbour pay this, therefore I should pay the same for a comparable property. It's false - you don't and shouldn't.

AoD

 

[muller877]

Just to name a few...

- Free access to TPL, the largest neighbourhood-based library system in the world. That's not just books, but also includes free entry to a lot of attractions in the city.
- Reduced-price access to city programs.
- Access to proposed TTC discounts if they're a low-income household.
- Access to specialty programs in Toronto schools. The only one open to people out of the city is TOPS.

What difference to other municipalities?

Every city in the GTA has a library system. Sorry we aren't different. I don't care if there are 2 libraries in a municipality or 200. Residents mainly care about their neighborhood library only. If I live in Courtice (35,000 people) I have a library open 7 days a week and open to 9pm every week night. If I live in Rexdale I have a library only open 5 days a week (apparently no one wants to read on a Sunday or Monday) and only open 2 days after regular working hours (employed people also don't like to read I guess). I'd rather have it open when I'm off work!

City programs...all cities subsidize the recreation expecting you to pay 1/3 to 1/2 of the costs. Checking online swimming lessons are comparable in various cities.

TTC discounts. Again...each city offers discounts to targeted people for transit.

School programs. Imagine that outside of Toronto there a also specialty programs!

So again what additional services does Toronto get that is UNIQUE to Toronto? Each city offers similar services to their own residents. And our taxes are lower due to the commercial base, apartment tax, condos needing less roads, a garbage tax and the land transfer tax. All explainable. The services in Toronto are comparable and the tax rates are comparable to other cities after factoring in these differences.

 

[micheal_can]

So again what additional services does Toronto get that is UNIQUE to Toronto? Each city offers similar services to their own residents. And our taxes are lower due to the commercial base, apartment tax, condos needing less roads, a garbage tax and the land transfer tax. All explainable. The services in Toronto are comparable and the tax rates are comparable to other cities after factoring in these differences.

That is the problem. Toronto thinks it is special and demands things.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That is the problem. Toronto thinks it is special and demands things.

Toronto is special, but that isn't the problem. It is when everyone else think they are special when they are not and started to demand the very same things because "fairness".

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That is the problem. Toronto thinks it is special...

In what regard?

 

[Cobra]

Toronto is special, but that isn't the problem. It is when everyone else think they are special when they are not and started to demand the very same things because "fairness".

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

So you are implying that someone living here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.829...4!1sV0PbHX0PIMwdWnvMS-_H2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

should pay 25% different than someone living here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.830...4!1sPXH7H4DW_9U1DoMRRNJIIQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Can you tell me what additional services the house in the 416 gets? And every other house that is not on a subway nor in the downtown core (i.e. the vast majority of people living in Toronto)

Absolutely. Better Libraries. Better Rec programs. Better parks. Better transit too...because if you are going away from the 415, YRT will not be comparable to the TTC. Heck, you probably stand to have an advantage on hiring with a 416 address on your resume.

Your example does point out one of the major flaws of our system of governmental organization. Non-residents get to benefit a ton from investments made by the City of Toronto. In the long run some form of revenue capture will have to be directed towards that inequity.

I would suggest Torontonians pay higher taxes and the city applies a congestion charge exempting 416 ratepayers. This way everybody contributes more.

 

[kEiThZ]

So a Toronto resident is paying a whopping $100 less than in Mississauga. Why? We have to look at the budgets of Toronto vs Misssissuaga/Peel. Are we getting different services?

Based entirely on an assumption that the Toronto resident will be moving in 10 years. Stats show that by the time most people are in homeownership stage, they'll be moving less than that. And if the LTT revenue tells us anything, it's that 10% of homes are being turned over in the city annually.

Every city in the GTA has a library system. Sorry we aren't different. I don't care if there are 2 libraries in a municipality or 200. Residents mainly care about their neighborhood library only. If I live in Courtice (35,000 people) I have a library open 7 days a week and open to 9pm every week night. If I live in Rexdale I have a library only open 5 days a week (apparently no one wants to read on a Sunday or Monday) and only open 2 days after regular working hours (employed people also don't like to read I guess). I'd rather have it open when I'm off work!

You clearly haven't used TPL to its fullest extent, if you think simply having a presence is all they are useful for. Libraries benefit from scale. The collections grow. At the scale that TPL, they have collections that other public libraries can only dream off.

TPL also provides things like e-book borrowing and passes for Toronto's attractions like the zoo. Just check out how the much the zoo would cost for the average family.

City programs...all cities subsidize the recreation expecting you to pay 1/3 to 1/2 of the costs. Checking online swimming lessons are comparable in various cities.

Again. Do you ever use any services in Toronto? Toronto Parks and Rec has the most comprehensive set of offerings I've ever seen. And I've lived in 4 of the largest provinces of this country. It betrays quite some ignorance if you think it's only about swimming lessons.

School programs. Imagine that outside of Toronto there a also specialty programs!

There really aren't as many specialty offerings in other school boards. Again, size has its advantages. And in this case, the ability to offer a diverse set of specializations:

http://www.tdsb.on.ca/AboutUs/Innovation/HighSchoolSpecializedPrograms.aspx

Even the Catholic board in Toronto offers excellent AP classes and IB programs. Meanwhile, in York region, their solution for High Performance Athletes? Treat them as Co-op students.


Finally, if people really don't think there's benefit to living in the 416, why are they here? The City should charge more. And those who value living in the City will stay. The rest will choose the 905.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

One also need to recall that a good chunk of the operating budget is from the TPS - which is the largest, highest paid, etc. municipal police force.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

One also need to recall that a good chunk of the operating budget is from the TPS - which is the largest, highest paid, etc. municipal police force.

AoD

I was going to suggest better policing. But I couldn't back that up objectively enough. The rest are easy to prove. And it's not just policing. Toronto has a substantially better fire service and hospitals.

Get an illness like cancer and you'll be glad you live in the city with Sunnybrook.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You clearly haven't used TPL to its fullest extent, if you think simply having a presence is all they are useful for. Libraries benefit from scale. The collections grow. At the scale that TPL, they have collections that other public libraries can only dream off.

TPL is fantastic. And well utilized. Around 70% of torontonians use the library annually. Even as an adult, the TPL provides tremendous value as a free workspace. And of course the TPL hosts tons of free programs for people to take advantage of. The economic value of all this is immeasurable.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I was going to suggest better policing. But I couldn't back that up objectively enough. The rest are easy to prove. And it's not just policing. Toronto has a substantially better fire service and hospitals.

"Better" is such a loaded term - but there are so many specialized services that are not necessarily replicated by other GTA forces to the same extent - HUSAR, etc. Or how about transit - who else operates a capital intensive subway line in the GTA?

AoD