Church-Wellesley Village

[urbanvillageboy]

No problem. Your belief is wrong, though.



Sorry, I thought this was done. I am really not sure this conversation is right for this thread, but you seem a bit upset by what I said, for which I apologise. By all means, you are part of whatever community you feel yourself to be part of.



In fairness, no. You wrote about 3 congregations sprawled across downtown (Brunswick, Riverdale, Kensington), of which one holds weekly Shabat services. Renting the JCC twice every September/October is another important local use of the facility, although I am not certain how that is distinguished from all of the community centre and church hall (!) spaces rented for the same purpose throughout the GTA.

Is it possible you are making too much of this? I wasn't trying to argue that there are no persons of Jewish origin or heritage living south of St. Clair -- only that it seemed a bit ridiculous to take umbrage at the idea that, whereas 50 years ago Toronto's urban geography worked quite differently, today Bathurst and Centre in Thornhill is inside a heavily-Jewish neighbourhood in a way that the neighbourhood around the Mosaic is not. I wasn't really taking a position as to whether or not the suburbanization of Toronto's Jewish or other ethnic communities is a good or bad thing. Just raising my eyebrows at the idea that it never happened.

If you want to see that as a controversial statement, you are obviously free to do so, but if you are seeking support for that viewpoint, I would suggest that calling out a synagogue, a couple of prayer groups, and a 50-year-old Jewish bakery whose original owners lived in the area -- in a metro area with hundreds of thriving synagogues and Jewish eateries -- does not support it very strongly. Certainly there are the seeds of urban renewal for a distinctive Jewish presence in an urban neighbourhood in Toronto. There is quite some distance to go before that is more than a phantom reality in my opinion. But, well, that's pretty subjective.

(Yes, I think this needs a separate thread. Maybe in Neighbourhoods? Do those necessarily have to be geographically based, or can they be demographically oriented instead?)

You know what I give up because you are just wrong and you're minimizing and denigrating what has been going on. I am now sure you have no first hand acquaintance of it

. I stated that this community is different- it does not operate like the traditional suburban community does. There are thousands of Jews living in the greater downtown area- their growing presence has led to the development of a day school, at least one afternoon school, several new congregations, the revival of the old congregations in Kensington Market( Anshei Minsk being one), and the renewal of the JCC. Two, not just one of the congregations I mentioned, have weekly services. I don't think that we've seen the end of this development because my guess is that a growing group of individuals will be moving into many of the condominiums including retirees from Forest Hill. The dynamic will continue to grow and change and it will be interesting to watch it.

And by the way there are not hundreds of synagogues in the north end. At most there are a several dozen.

Actually I find it a pity that you cannot open your mind to accept what is in fact a very interesting new urban phenomenon worth exploring and understanding. But you know what, that's your loss.

 

[urbandreamer]

I can think of at least six synagogues south of Bloor Street; I've always liked that one on Brunswick Avenue but have never been in it. Plus the UofT has got to have a few thousand or more Jewish students if they can support their own student centre. The JCC caters towards the UofT crowd.

Is there a growing Jewish presence downtown? Yes, like everyone else born in the suburbs, the kids (25-40 yr olds) are buying condos and homes downtown. Then there's always Parkdale/Roncevalles....

The major issue that bugs me about the overall Toronto Jewish crowd (I feel like an outsider looking in): they are extremely conservative. (Just like the WASP's in GTA are very conservative.)

Mosaic the condo I wonder if it was designed/developed by the same group behind the JCC? ie, architecturally cheap and poorly designed?

 

[Disparishun]

You know what I give up because you are just wrong and you're minimizing and denigrating what has been going on. I am now sure you have no first hand acquaintance of it.

You know what? You're being hostile, insulting, and needlessly combative. You're also misquoting me and grabbing stuff out of context. Not appreciated.

I stated that this community is different- it does not operate like the traditional suburban community does.

This is based on the fallacy that the "traditional suburban" community operates in a single or unique way. It doesn't. As an example, the presence of many kosher eateries does not imply the absence of thousands of Jews who do not keep kosher. The presence of a couple of dozen day schools does not imply the absence of thousands of Jews who would never dream of patronizing one. The presence of heavily Russian and Hebrew speaking subgroups does not imply the absence of English-oriented ones. "Orthodox" and reform and secular and left-wing and right-wing. And so forth.

Again, I wasn't trying to argue that there are no persons of Jewish origin or heritage living south of St. Clair -- only that it seemed a bit ridiculous to take umbrage at the idea that, whereas 50 years ago Toronto's urban geography worked quite differently, today Bathurst and Centre in Thornhill is inside a heavily-Jewish neighbourhood in a way that the neighbourhood around the Mosaic is not. Do you really dispute this?

There are thousands of Jews living in the greater downtown area- their growing presence has led to the development of a day school, at least one afternoon school, several new congregations, the revival of the old congregations in Kensington Market( Anshei Minsk being one), and the renewal of the JCC. Two, not just one of the congregations I mentioned, have weekly services. I don't think that we've seen the end of this development because my guess is that a growing group of individuals will be moving into many of the condominiums including retirees from Forest Hill. The dynamic will continue to grow and change and it will be interesting to watch it.

Indeed. As I wrote: certainly there are the seeds of urban renewal for a distinctive Jewish presence in an urban neighbourhood in Toronto. There is quite some distance to go before that is more than a phantom reality in my opinion. But, well, that's pretty subjective.

Actually I find it a pity that you cannot open your mind to accept what is in fact a very interesting new urban phenomenon worth exploring and understanding. But you know what, that's your loss.

You know, when you try and put words in someone else's mouth, you risk having them spit right back at you.

Honestly. Take it down a notch. You're arguing with a strawman. I'm not that strawman. Sorry to disappoint.

I can think of at least six synagogues south of Bloor Street; I've always liked that one on Brunswick Avenue but have never been in it. Plus the UofT has got to have a few thousand or more Jewish students if they can support their own student centre. The JCC caters towards the UofT crowd.

Exactly.

The major issue that bugs me about the overall Toronto Jewish crowd (I feel like an outsider looking in): they are extremely conservative.

I think there is a bit of stereotyping here as well, mind you. I do not think that the overall Toronto Jewish community is more conservative than other ethnic communities in Toronto.

Edit: mods -- any way we can get a separate thread for this discussion, maybe in the Neighbourhoods forum? It seems pretty tangential to the Mosaic.

 

[King of Kensington]

I do not think that the overall Toronto Jewish community is more conservative than other ethnic communities in Toronto.

I don't either. If anything, Jews are probably just about the most small-"l" liberal ethnic group in Canada! But obviously Jews who live in Trinity-Spadina or St. Paul's are more progressive their counterparts in Thornhill.

 

[urbandreamer]

By "conservative" i meant that compared to Jewish populations in other cities in NA, Toronto's community is very insular and conservative. (For example, on Facebook, many just associate with their old school mates.) I find many Jewish girls in Toronto want nothing to do with me once they find out I didn't go to high school in Toronto, wasn't raised in Toronto, part of the community here, etc. Many of these women of course grew up north of St Clair--Forest Hill, Bath/Lawrence, and Thornhill etc. Montreal can be like that too. Of course, coming from a mixed background complicates things further.... Even the "liberal" Annex-dwellers etc are close-minded about things.

Maybe I am weird? (Which reminds me: UT needs a new thread titled: Why is dating in Toronto so complicated? I miss those easy pick ups in Montreal....)

 

[Hydrogen]

Maybe you need to ditch the Chewbacca pants.

 

[King of Kensington]

By "conservative" i meant that compared to Jewish populations in other cities in NA, Toronto's community is very insular and conservative. (For example, on Facebook, many just associate with their old school mates.) I find many Jewish girls in Toronto want nothing to do with me once they find out I didn't go to high school in Toronto, wasn't raised in Toronto, part of the community here, etc. Many of these women of course grew up north of St Clair--Forest Hill, Bath/Lawrence, and Thornhill etc. Montreal can be like that too. Of course, coming from a mixed background complicates things further.... Even the "liberal" Annex-dwellers etc are close-minded about things.

There are "Jewish suburbs" all over North America - Forest Hill, Hampstead, Scarsdale, Southfield, Shaker Heights, Highland Park, Beverly Hills, etc. and lots of people end up of all ethnicities associating with their old friends. I don't this is a phenomenon unique to the Toronto Jewish community or Jews generally.

Speaking of conservatism, in the political sense, it appears the Jews of Willowdale just had an opportunity to "reward" Harper with their votes, etc. because supposedly they've all embraced the Tories because of Harper's words in the Lebanon war two years ago...it appears they didn't do so.

 

[Disparishun]

There are "Jewish suburbs" all over North America - Forest Hill, Hampstead, Scarsdale, Southfield, Shaker Heights, Highland Park, Beverly Hills, etc. and lots of people end up of all ethnicities associating with their old friends. I don't this is a phenomenon unique to the Toronto Jewish community or Jews generally.

Believe it or not, there is a book out there which uses suburban Toronto as a case study for that very phenomenon, although it focuses on "Orthodox" Jews. Haven't read it, so I can't vouch for it, mind you, but here's the link.

 

[urbandreamer]

And I will dwell in their Midst....

^Hey thanks for the book tip. I've seen it before now I shall have to read it. Of course, I never dwelled within their midst.... More likely I grew up surrounded by Amish and Mennonite farmers...with a few Scots tossed in.

UT's first book club pick:

And I Will Dwell in Their Midst
Orthodox Jews in Suburbia

by Etan Diamond
Copyright (c) 2000 by the University of North Carolina Press. All rights reserved.

 

[Disparishun]

Heh. OK, I will try and get it from the library as well. Have had it kicked around on my list of books to read for a few years now.

 

[King of Kensington]

I wasn't referring specifically to Orthodox Jews (as this book does) when I was talking about "Jewish suburbs" (I guess he's referring to Bathurst-Lawrence or perhaps parts of Thornhilll)...it may be an interesting read but 90% of the Jews in Toronto aren't part of that community,

 

[Disparishun]

I wasn't referring specifically to Orthodox Jews (as this book does) when I was talking about "Jewish suburbs" (I guess he's referring to Bathurst-Lawrence or perhaps parts of Thornhilll)

I don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise, King.

Edit:

it may be an interesting read but 90% of the Jews in Toronto aren't part of that community,

... although the lines you draw are a bit too hard and fast to match reality, surely. Twenty or forty percent of Toronto's Jews are variously said to be Orthodox (by which I assume they mean either affiliated with Orthodox or with traditional congregations): the great many of those people who are not themselves religiously observant are surely familiar with or move in the kinds of circles with which the book is concerned. A third of Toronto's Jewish children are said to attend Jewish day schools: anyone attending such a school -- with a couple of possible exceptions: I know little about Leo Baeck or the Paul Penna schools -- will at least have come into contact with, say, kosher food and other elements of the community that are discussed in the book. About forty percent of Toronto's Jews are said to live in the neighbourhoods within which observant Jews and related institutions connected to Orthodox and traditional Judaism are very visible. Eighty-three percent are said to live north of St. Clair (same link. Lots of relevant stuff there, actually, although all from 2001 and seeming a bit dated to me).

In other words, I think that these groupings are more porous, and social networks more overlapping, than you imply.

 

[King of Kensington]

It probably hasn't changed that much from 2001 census...the Jewish community is not growing at a particularly fast rate (ethnicity data comes out next week I believe, so we'll see soon enough). It doesn't surprise me at all that 83% of Jews in Toronto live north of St. Clair, as the suburban movement went entirely northward and not say, westward towards Etobicoke and Misssissauga, places that are practically Judenrein. Still, it looks like the Annex does have quite a significant Jewish population indeed (11.2% but it would be interesting to see that broken down who say their religion is Judaism vs. those people - like me - who write Jewish as an ethnicity but are of no religion).

Those numbers about 40% of Toronto Jews being "Orthodox" seem ridiculously out of whack to me, especially since they don't provide any sources. This survey undertaken by the UJA Toronto says 14% are Orthodox and only about 25% can really be said to be "religious" (synagogue attendance on a monthly basis, keeping kosher, etc.) It would be interesting to see that broken down by geographic areas, but it would probably run into sample size problems. I agree other Jews encounter Orthodox Jews from time to time, but overall it's a pretty insular world, concentrated in a few pockets of Toronto's Jewish geography (i.e. Bathurst and Lawrence).

http://www.jewishtoronto.net/local_includes/downloads/13782.pdf

ETA: The downtown Jews really are an irreligious bunch. Only 6% sending their kids to day school, only 8% attend synagogue once a month or more.

 

[Disparishun]

It probably hasn't changed that much from 2001 census...the Jewish community is not growing at a particularly fast rate (ethnicity data comes out next week I believe, so we'll see soon enough).

Depends what you're looking for. In the 2001 data they found that the 60% lived in the "central" area between St. Clair and Steeles. I would bet that that the cohort living north of Steeles is significantly greater in the 2006 census -- although it will take a long time before someone purchases the microdata, churns through it to find out, and publishes their findings, I guess.

Still, it looks like the Annex does have quite a significant Jewish population indeed (11.2% but it would be interesting to see that broken down who say their religion is Judaism vs. those people - like me - who write Jewish as an ethnicity but are of no religion).

I don't think that's quite right. See page 8 of this pdf. The 11.2% figure is for south of St. Clair generally. Within that area, the two neighbourhoods of note that they flag are:
- Annex / Bloor W. / Yorkville - 2,890 (1.6%)
- High Park / Junction - 1,940 (1.1%)

Page 17 (all page refs to the PDF itself) also shows that "Finch / Steeles (West), Toronto CMA" and "Thornhill (Vaughan), Toronto CMA", and Bathurst Manor were 3 of the 5 densest Jewish areas in Canada, at 51.9%, 50.7%, and 41.5% of the general population, respectively.

Interestingly, the other 2 areas -- Hampstead and CSL in Montreal -- had considerably density at 75% and 70% of the general population, respectively.

But I think this will have shifted a fair bit (for Toronto) in the 2006 census. There is a continuing movement northward as housing prices rise: see Thornhill Woods for instance.

it would be interesting to see that broken down who say their religion is Judaism vs. those people - like me - who write Jewish as an ethnicity but are of no religion

See PDF page 16 (I think it's numbered in print as page 9) here. Interestingly the areas where this is most common are Danforth/Beaches (29.4%), Downtown Core (18.4%), Bloor/St-Clair (12.1%) ... and Finch/Steeles (West) (12.3%).

The first 3 are not a surprise, and correlate to the highest-intermarriage areas. The 4th corresponds to Russian immigration -- basically correlates with the USSR's double policy of granting Jews limited collective rights as one of the recognized "nationalities" but, obviously, none as a religious group.

Those numbers about 40% of Toronto Jews being "Orthodox" seem ridiculously out of whack to me, especially since they don't provide any sources. This survey undertaken by the UJA Toronto says 14% are Orthodox and only about 25% can really be said to be "religious" (synagogue attendance on a monthly basis, keeping kosher, etc.) It would be interesting to see that broken down by geographic areas, but it would probably run into sample size problems.

I think it's definitional. Some people take "Orthodox" to mean very religiously observant. Other people take "Orthodox" to mean affiliated with religious practice that is not Conservative or Reform or Reconstructionist or otherwise less-traditional streams. The 40% number is not especially surprising to me on the latter definition -- my family and a great many others would identify as "Orthodox" as opposed to Conservative or Reform, but you will certainly see postings here from me on Saturdays.

As Toronto's Jewish population becomes increasingly immigrant, I see no reason why that would not be a continued trend. The bulk of those immigrants are either Russian, or Russian and Israeli (among whom Chabad outreach is having pretty good success), or French, or French and Israeli, or Israeli (many of all three groups being Sephardic/Mizrahi and therefore falling by default into the "Orthodox" basket). The South Africans and Argentinians are much less likely to default to the Orthodox stream in my experience.

I agree other Jews encounter Orthodox Jews from time to time, but overall it's a pretty insular world, concentrated in a few pockets of Toronto's Jewish geography (i.e. Bathurst and Lawrence).

I don't agree. Take food. We frequently eat at kosher restaurants, shop in grocery stores with large kosher sections, and so forth. They are a regular feature of my family's life. I presume that those are the kinds of places that are important to the book's urban geography. Yet we are not religiously observant at all. For the part of Toronto's Jewish population which lives in north end Jewish neighbourhoods, which we know is a hefty chunk, that is not unusual at all.

ETA: The downtown Jews really are an irreligious bunch. Only 6% sending their kids to day school, only 8% attend synagogue once a month or more.

I say this timidly lest someone try and bite my head off again, but I have the sense that it is a more general lack of affiliation with Jewish communal life, religion or no -- as in not being something that drives choice of neighbourhood, choice of life partner, and so on. It is quite striking that almost half of the 11.6% of Jews who live downtown and are married are married to partners of another background, compared to less than a tenth of those in the central and northern neighbourhoods. (I am not making any value judgement -- just noting that that is the one of the more extreme statistical differences in the study.)

 

[King of Kensington]

Depends what you're looking for. In the 2001 data they found that the 60% lived in the "central" area between St. Clair and Steeles. I would bet that that the cohort living north of Steeles is significantly greater in the 2006 census -- although it will take a long time before someone purchases the microdata, churns through it to find out, and publishes their findings, I guess.

You can get data from the cenus tracts at any public library, which should be out soon. I agree there will be movement out of the "Central" area and growth in the north. I expect there to be growth downtown as well.

I don't think that's quite right. See page 8 of this pdf. The 11.2% figure is for south of St. Clair generally. Within that area, the two neighbourhoods of note that they flag are:
- Annex / Bloor W. / Yorkville - 2,890 (1.6%)
- High Park / Junction - 1,940 (1.1%)

We're looking at different things. Eleven percent of Jews live south of St. Clair (i.e., mainly downtown and almost entirely in the old city of Toronto) and also Jews make up about 11 percent of the population of the Annex and Yorkville (2890/25770=11.2%). High Park/Junction seems to mean the area of the old city west of Dufferin, and Jews are a very small percentage of the population there (1.4%), no surprise there.

Page 17(all page refs to the PDF itself) also shows that "Finch / Steeles (West), Toronto CMA" and "Thornhill (Vaughan), Toronto CMA", and Bathurst Manor were 3 of the 5 densest Jewish areas in Canada, at 51.9%, 50.7%, and 41.5% of the general population, respectively.

Interestingly, the other 2 areas -- Hampstead and CSL in Montreal -- had considerably density at 75% and 70% of the general population, respectively.

No surprise there. Montreal Jews, for historical reasons based on language divides in Montreal, are even more concentrated than elsewhere in N. America. Of course it has its diverse Jewish geography too - Hasidic Jews in Outremont, secular Jews in Westmount and NDG who would live in St. Paul's or Trinity-Spadina if they lived in Toronto, Hampstead being a Forest Hill-type place and CSL being somewhat akin to Bathurst Manor.

See PDF page 16 (I think it's numbered in print as page 9) here. Interestingly the areas where this is most common are Danforth/Beaches (29.4%), Downtown Core (18.4%), Bloor/St-Clair (12.1%) ... and Finch/Steeles (West) (12.3%).

The first 3 are not a surprise, and correlate to the highest-intermarriage areas. The 4th corresponds to Russian immigration -- basically correlates with the USSR's double policy of granting Jews limited collective rights as one of the recognized "nationalities" but, obviously, none as a religious group.

No surprises there. Of course Bloor/St. Clair also encompasses Casa Loma, Hillcrest and Rosedale as well as the Annex, although it probably makes little difference when you split the Annex out.

I think it's definitional. Some people take "Orthodox" to mean very religiously observant. Other people take "Orthodox" to mean affiliated with religious practice that is not Conservative or Reform or Reconstructionist or otherwise less-traditional streams. The 40% number is not especially surprising to me on the latter definition -- my family and a great many others would identify as "Orthodox" as opposed to Conservative or Reform, but you will certainly see postings here from me on Saturdays.

I'll believe the 40% when I see it...maybe that's the case in Brooklyn, but not in the GTA. People were given an opportunity to identify as "Orthodox" without any religious test, and only 14% opted to do so.

I say this timidly lest someone try and bite my head off again, but I have the sense that it is a more general lack of affiliation with Jewish communal life, religion or no -- as in not being something that drives choice of neighbourhood, choice of life partner, and so on. It is quite striking that almost half of the 11.6% of Jews who live downtown and are married are married to partners of another background, compared to less than a tenth of those in the central and northern neighbourhoods. (I am not making any value judgement -- just noting that that is the one of the more extreme statistical differences in the study.)

You won't get any argument from me. Downtown Jews tend to be very secular and have little to no ties to the organized Jewish community. That is nothing new.

Mainstream North American Jewish life is predominatly suburban. The only classic urban "Jewish" neighborhoods left are in NYC and Montreal, as far as I know.

ETA: According to the study you cite, 15.6% of Jews in the Annex say they're of "no religion", slightly higher than the 12.1% for Bloor/St. Clair.