Cabbagetown

[Peepers]

Mr. Harmandayan info http://www.postcity.com/Post-City-Magazines/August-2011/The-Flip-Side/

Check out the ridiculous prices quoted for his ugly renovations. $3 Million for a small ugly 4 bedroom home on a tiny lot (doesn't even have a driveway) on Heath street! Even in this heated market that home would not fetch half that price. Does the National Post think its readers are functionally illiterate? (sorry off topic).

 

[Blovertis]

It's actually not the National Post but the North Toronto Post, a monthly magazine that is distributed free to doorsteps. Different title depending on the neighbourhood.

But you're right, you'd have to be on crack to pay nearly $3 million for that house on Heath. BTW I don't think Mr. Harmandayan is responsible for that one -- just the beige EIFS-sore in the inset photo.

He apparently doesn't mind being described as a "house flipper". I had thought it was still a pejorative but I guess the times they are a changin'.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Let's all remember that Cabbagetown is now in this guy's crosshairs. He'll be back with some idea for that property and others. If someone has access to city records we can find out what else this fellow owns in the area. Imagine if he bought the old House on Parliament site?!

 

[UserNameToronto]

Let's all remember that Cabbagetown is now in this guy's crosshairs. He'll be back with some idea for that property and others. If someone has access to city records we can find out what else this fellow owns in the area. Imagine if he bought the old House on Parliament site?!

We know the owner is an investor and flipper, and can make an educated guess he does not live in downtown east. Moral compass aside, there is no evidence to show this guy actively has plans to destroy south Cabbagetown, just that he wants to make an ROI. So to be constructive, we have to ask what possible uses a building like this has that can produce a profit.

- Bar? This would be easy to do since it was a bat before. But given foot traffic and area demographics, only a dive bar could survive here.
- Residences? It would be great to have a few 800-1000sqft lofty apartments for young professionals, but I suspect a rooming house is easier and more profitable.
- Office space? Maybe, as many other heritage buildings in downtown east have been reno'd and converted for this type of use.

It's also worth noting that Dundas & Ontario is south Cabbagetown, not prime Cabbagetown.

 

[Addy]

We know the owner is an investor and flipper, and can make an educated guess he does not live in downtown east. Moral compass aside, there is no evidence to show this guy actively has plans to destroy south Cabbagetown, just that he wants to make an ROI. So to be constructive, we have to ask what possible uses a building like this has that can produce a profit.

- Bar? This would be easy to do since it was a bat before. But given foot traffic and area demographics, only a dive bar could survive here.
- Residences? It would be great to have a few 800-1000sqft lofty apartments for young professionals, but I suspect a rooming house is easier and more profitable.
- Office space? Maybe, as many other heritage buildings in downtown east have been reno'd and converted for this type of use.

It's also worth noting that Dundas & Ontario is south Cabbagetown, not prime Cabbagetown.

I know the owner and he owns couple of great properties in the neighborhood. He is an investor and is looking to make a profit. The use wasn't a problem for him and is for the local residents including me.

He property is currently a rooming house upstairs and the area in question is the main floor. I was interested in the property when it was for sale earlier this year to convert it into residences but we just couldn't make it happen with the seller. Let's see what he does with the space now...

I would imagine that he would still be looking to lease it out to someone else as long as they don't bring anything shocking as a clinic to the area... A cool bistro or bar would definitely rejuvenate the area much like how Stout Irish Pub or Mylk Uncookie have done so far...

 

[Jonny5]

- Bar? This would be easy to do since it was a bat before. But given foot traffic and area demographics, only a dive bar could survive here.
- Residences? It would be great to have a few 800-1000sqft lofty apartments for young professionals, but I suspect a rooming house is easier and more profitable.

I disagree or simply don't understand what you are writing here. The demographics do not preclude everything but a dive bar. Within a 10 minute walk there is surely more than 1000 people earning more than $75,000 gross income per year. Add on a 10 minute streetcar ride and you get even more. What is on offer and at what price will determine what the atmosphere of a bar in this location is like. The Drake was purchased by an investor in 2001, at a time when the "West Queen West" environment was similar to what Dundas East is now. I personally predict the future of this neighbourhood to be on the same track.

To your second point, I don't see how rooming houses are more profitable than "800 to 1000 sqft lofty apts.." Given the Toronto market, I would expect renovated and well designed units to fetch a massive rental profit in comparison to what a (legal) rooming house could get.

 

[UserNameToronto]

I disagree or simply don't understand what you are writing here. The demographics do not preclude everything but a dive bar. Within a 10 minute walk there is surely more than 1000 people earning more than $75,000 gross income per year. Add on a 10 minute streetcar ride and you get even more. What is on offer and at what price will determine what the atmosphere of a bar in this location is like. The Drake was purchased by an investor in 2001, at a time when the "West Queen West" environment was similar to what Dundas East is now. I personally predict the future of this neighbourhood to be on the same track.

Jonny5, maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not trying to dictate anything, merely pontificate on positive possibilities for this property. What is the best outcome? And what is the most likley outcome?

There is no track record of a non-dive bar succeeding at Dundas & Ontario. People who open bars usually want to succeed. For anyone looking to open a bar in downtown east, location is a top priority, and Parliament St. in Cabbagetown proper is the preferred location. Nice bars (that is, non-dive bars) tend to be clustered on vibrant commercial strips. It would be great if something House on Parliament-y opened up at Dundas and Ontario, but I think most prospective customers would rather go to the main shopping area on Parliament.

On the other hand, some landmark bars can do well in odd areas (the Dominion on Queen at Queen & Sumach comes to mind). Alternatively, it would be great for a trailblazer-type business to open up, in the vein of Upside Dive and Ecostems at Queen & Sherbourne.

To your second point, I don't see how rooming houses are more profitable than "800 to 1000 sqft lofty apts.." Given the Toronto market, I would expect renovated and well designed units to fetch a massive rental profit in comparison to what a (legal) rooming house could get.

Rooming houses can be really profitable which is why there are so many. Let's look at an example: http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11184551&PidKey=-1585487757 . Figure $500/mo for each of the 8 units ($4000/mo income) on a $2000/mo mortgage. Figure $400/mo for utilities and another $300/mo for property tax. And zero capital investment because no matter how nasty the units are, they'll be rented out somehow. I don't like rooming houses any more than you do, but as long as they're profitable they'll be around. Here's another example: http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11149132&PidKey=1969581919

Renovating the existing building into condo-type units and selling the units off could be risky, and tricky. My suggestion was to create a rental building with several nice, large units aimed at yuppies. This would be good for the neighbourhood, but unlikley to be as profitable, or as easy, as a rooming house. Turning this building into 4-5 nice apartments would require at least a few hundred thousand in capital investment.

In the end, we have to assume our friendly investor cares about profit and nothing else. What do you suggest he does with this building? And assuming he's driven just by ROI, what do you think he will actually do?

 

[Addy]

This property is currently a rooming house with 22 or 23 rooms in it. It generates a decent profit as well. A bar would do well here...

The old brass taps that is an example where we have clients going to a place where no one went before... Same with the underdown bar at the corner of Gerrard and Berkeley... Just have to bring a fresh approach... Underdown does live music four nights a week and even though is in the basement, looks amazing...

 

[Dilla]

This property is currently a rooming house with 22 or 23 rooms in it. It generates a decent profit as well. A bar would do well here...

The old brass taps that is an example where we have clients going to a place where no one went before... Same with the underdown bar at the corner of Gerrard and Berkeley... Just have to bring a fresh approach... Underdown does live music four nights a week and even though is in the basement, looks amazing...

i was going to mention the underdown, too. I thought it was doomed to become a dive, but it's managed to avoid this. the new patio is really nice, and the food's good, too. If you can manage to keep a good clientele (and prices more toward the high end for drinks don't hurt), you can stop it from becoming a dive. There could be a nice little sunny patio there, too (where the payphones used to be).

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=map+to...id=avQhQC5jJReWVYjhHpy_7Q&cbp=12,3.29,,1,-1.6

 

[Jonny5]

Renovating the existing building into condo-type units and selling the units off could be risky, and tricky. My suggestion was to create a rental building with several nice, large units aimed at yuppies. This would be good for the neighbourhood, but unlikley to be as profitable, or as easy, as a rooming house. Turning this building into 4-5 nice apartments would require at least a few hundred thousand in capital investment.

In the end, we have to assume our friendly investor cares about profit and nothing else. What do you suggest he does with this building? And assuming he's driven just by ROI, what do you think he will actually do?

Is the building on the corner attached and integrated with the house beside it? That seems to be what you and others are implying, which I was not aware of. I assumed it wasn't attached and that a renovation of the second and third floor was the only option for residential rental uses, assuming the first floor remains commercial. I think renting well renovated units could turn more profit over time than converting it into rooms at minimum cost. However since the property is apparently double the size I think it is, than it is a more obvious choice is for a rooming house.

Anyway, the clinic is officially dead. So now it is a real question as to what this will be used for. I think a trail blazing bar would be great. Look at the south side of Gerrard from Ontario to Berkeley, it's slowly adding higher quality retail tenants after some people took the initial risk. It could happen on Dundas too, though only to the east of Ontario for now. Of course, I'm not saying the owner should take the risk, but merely aim for a higher quality of tenant. That may mean offering a break on rent to an innovator in the near term.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Is anyone else in CT annoyed by the delivery trucks and private service vehicles that park up on the sidewalks?

On Sackville St. you have parking on one side of the street, so instead of finding a spot you get trucks blocking the sidewalk, and in many instances blocking my driveway. I'm seeing folks with baby carriages, wheel chairs and rollies having to go into the street to get around the trucks. It's even worse in the winter.

I'm getting the point where I want the city to install bollards along the sidewalk's edge.

 

[Addy]

Is anyone else in CT annoyed by the delivery trucks and private service vehicles that park up on the sidewalks?

On Sackville St. you have parking on one side of the street, so instead of finding a spot you get trucks blocking the sidewalk, and in many instances blocking my driveway. I'm seeing folks with baby carriages, wheel chairs and rollies having to go into the street to get around the trucks. It's even worse in the winter.

I'm getting the point where I want the city to install bollards along the sidewalk's edge.

Construction trucks are definitely an issue especially on a busy street such as Sackville. Bollards would definitely be a welcoming change to stop these but I'm sure we will have issues with trucks creeping into driveways etc... Its hard to find parking in Cabbagetown and already see so many of them parking at Riverdale Farm.

Here's a new development that I found out about yesterday...

 

[Dilla]

A 30 story building? Hey, I'm all for development, but that seems right out of whack for this area. 6, tops.

 

[Peepers]

Construction trucks are definitely an issue especially on a busy street such as Sackville. Bollards would definitely be a welcoming change to stop these but I'm sure we will have issues with trucks creeping into driveways etc... Its hard to find parking in Cabbagetown and already see so many of them parking at Riverdale Farm.

Here's a new development that I found out about yesterday...

I got a virus alert when I tried to visit that link Anyone else getting that? Where is this 30 storey tower being proposed? I can't imagine an area in cabbagetown (proper) where it would be appropriate.

 

[Dilla]

Peepers, I didn't get any warning. At any rate, here you go:

I’ve heard from the some of the local dog owners and perish members that the church now at the corner of Bleecker and Carlton is soliciting offers and there are two offers currently in the running to get the property under contract. The numbers thrown around for the sale price are impressive to say the least. The main trouble they been having is with the Second Mile Club who are opposing the offer of buy because of excessive noise that will be coming from construction if the proposal goes through.

The parcel of land is consist of three lots with one having the church, one with a detached dwelling and the north lot with place of worship and residence. The lots are 185 feet deep and about 160 feet wide which makes them ideal for development. The developer interested in the property seems to be looking to develop a highrise on the corner ( I’m told 30 story building).

I don’t have a problem with development but I do have some issues with this proposal

What’s happening to the historical church? Is it being preserved or torn down?
Is the house being preserved too or taken down?
I heard that there are problems with the foundations of church hall in the north. Is that being taken down?
Where will the building be going?
How will this building fit in with the neighboring properties?
The information available was scarce and is what I’ve heard from different sources in the neighborhood. Do you have any further information about this? If so, please do leave a comment below.

I don’t warrant the accuracy of this information as I don’t have any facts to back this up. I’ve made a call to the church and am awaiting their reply.