Allowing Prayer sessions during school time

[reidjr2010]

If a private organization is paying rent for the use of a room durring non school hours that is one thing but if a group is useing a room durring school hours and not paying a fee that is the i could see is beeing a bit of a issue.The other thing is there is a double standard at times people claim freedom of religion when it comes to muslims but when it comes to christians having chirstmas partys etc thats a no non in many schools they have to be called holiday partys and have to be inclusive.As for the bathrooms thats a bit different there is a difference between have bathrooms set up like that and saying sorry girls you have to go to the back of the room and yes that is what is happening.With all of that said if religion is to be in the schools you have to be fair and give all groups equal treatment be it let muslims prayer on friday in a class room let christians have chirstmas partys and let jewish have there holiday partys etc.

 

[Tewder]

This isn't a crusade against christians either. Who doesn't love Christmas (the Bing Crosby/Santa version of it at least)? We just have to realize that Ontario isn't the mono-culture it was supposed to have once been (and really wasn't). We all have different beliefs, or none at all, and shouldn't be doing anything about those beliefs - or lack thereof - in school save deconstructing them!

By the way, I'm curious to know how they handle this in France given their laws surrounding religion in the secular public system.

 

[pman]

So then why are we only talking about denying Muslims in this thread?

Perhaps out of the suspicion that TDSB would never extend similar privileges to a Christian student group.

 

[nfitz]

If a private organization is paying rent for the use of a room durring non school hours that is one thing but if a group is useing a room durring school hours and not paying a fee that is the i could see is beeing a bit of a issue.

An issue ... perhaps. In impediment though?

The other thing is there is a double standard at times people claim freedom of religion when it comes to muslims but when it comes to christians having chirstmas partys etc thats a no non in many schools they have to be called holiday partys and have to be inclusive.

I thought the issue in schools wasn't the rental (or allocation) of separate rooms for voluntary Christmas activities by private organization, rather than having school-wide activities lead by staff.

Though given I'm not Christian, and I've always celebrated Christmas, I don't see the big deal. As a non-Christian, I'm always highly offended that people don't use the word Christmas. As long as they stick to egg-nog and mistletoe, rather than Herod killing babies and unwed parents, then I don't see the issue.

 

[reidjr2010]

Yes but thats part of the probleam some do seem to get offended by the word christmas even if they were to be led by a private group ina school my guess is they still would have to be called holiday partys and be all inclusive of other religions.I have no issue with private groups running speical events no matter there faith etc as long as all groups get equal treatment that would be fine and i think would be welcome by most.Aslo to be clear this is not a only toronto thing in ottawa there is about 13 high schools that offer the same thing in terms they have a room to pray in is this a good thing maybe so but i stand by what i said all groups should get equal treatment.

 

[Ak2809]

That was in relation to it being part of the curriculum however; something the classroom teacher did for the entire class (at least those who didn't have to be escorted out somewhere so they weren't subjected to it). If a private organization is running a non-mandatory program in separate rooms from classes, I don't see how that court ruling would have any bearing. Nor do I see a statute in question.

Was it not ruled that even students who chose to opt out of the Lords prayer faced discrimination? Is it not discriminatory to deny the usage of school facilities to non-muslim students?

 

[nfitz]

Was it not ruled that even students who chose to opt out of the Lords prayer faced discrimination?

Yes, however it was employees of the school board (i.e. - THE teacher) leading the prayer. This is not at all the case in what we have been discussing.

 

[Ak2809]

Yes, however it was employees of the school board (i.e. - THE teacher) leading the prayer. This is not at all the case in what we have been discussing.

That may be so, however, wouldn't you agree that those muslims who choose not to attend these prayer sessions would probably be found to face similar discrimination from their peers?

 

[nfitz]

That may be so, however, wouldn't you agree that those muslims who choose not to attend these prayer sessions would probably be found to face similar discrimination from their peers?

Would the kids in class, who choose not to play ice hockey, and show up late some mornings, face discrimination from their peers?

Would those that choose to do an optional music class in the morning and show up late some mornings face discrimination from their peers?

Would those that not go to remedial programs or enhanced programs some afternoon face discrimination from their peers?

Would those that are (or aren't) given off Jewish holidays face discrimination from their peers?

 

[Ak2809]

Religion is completely different from sports, music, and academic pursuits. Those are awful examples.

Your example of holidays isn't a good one, because any religious activities associated with them does not take place on public property or on school time.

 

[nfitz]

Religion is completely different from sports, music, and academic pursuits. Those are awful examples.

Perhaps a better example would be a comparison to the School's Dungeons and Dragons club ... or some other fictional activity ... Drama perhaps?

Your example of holidays isn't a good one, because any religious activities associated with them does not take place on public property or on school time.

But that's part of the issue ... Jews get to take off their religious holidays. Perhaps the solution is giving Muslims Friday's off. Or maybe we make everyone go to school/work on Fridays through Sundays, and to be equal we give everyone Tuesday and Wednesday off ...

Yes, that's it. Give everyone Tuesday or Wednesday off. I can't see how anyone would possibly object to that ... doesn't matter which days one get's off, does it.

 

[Ak2809]

But that's part of the issue ... Jews get to take off their religious holidays. Perhaps the solution is giving Muslims Friday's off.

You can accomodate students by allowing them the time off to leave to perform their prayers. As long as there is no religious activities being performed on public property there is no problem.

Schools are not places of worship, and should never be.

Yes, that's it. Give everyone Tuesday or Wednesday off. I can't see how anyone would possibly object to that ... doesn't matter which days one get's off, does it.

Accomodating students by giving them time off only affects that group of students, but if you change the days school is in session for all students then you start to affect parents, guardians and daycare providers.

 

[nfitz]

Schools are not places of worship, and should never be.

Then you can't have the government funding religious schools for other religions in Ontario. Until that time ...

Accomodating students by giving them time off only affects that group of students, but if you change the days school is in session for all students then you start to affect parents, guardians and daycare providers.

Oh, I figured you'd change it for everyone. Might as well do it North-America wide, as there are Muslims everywhere. I can't imagine anyone would object to something that is so equal, and wouldn't impact anyone.

 

[Ak2809]

Then you can't have the government funding religious schools for other religions in Ontario. Until that time ...

Exactly. All of this needs to go. You can't justify one bad practice by using another as an example.

Oh, I figured you'd change it for everyone. Might as well do it North-America wide, as there are Muslims everywhere. I can't imagine anyone would object to something that is so equal, and wouldn't impact anyone.

I would rather stop accomodation for religious practices period, but that raises too many charter issues.

 

[nfitz]

Exactly. All of this needs to go. You can't justify one bad practice by using another as an example.

So you'd toss out all the other non-Catholic funded schools, and accommodations, as well?

I'm disgusted that people only seem to really get their back up when we such accommodations for Muslims, and ignore that there have been accommodations for other groups in Ontario over the years (even ignoring the Constitionally-protected Catholics).

So why react to Muslims, when Islam is equal to Christianity?