Space for families in condos?

Miscreant said:

Although I admit that at this time in my life I couldn't afford more space downtown, I've come to enjoy living in smaller spaces. It's forced me to really think about how many things I own, what I really need and what is just taking up space, etc. So if I were in the market I would actually look at a small condo like that; for a long while my girlfriend and I lived in a bachelor/junior one bedroom apartment probably only about 250 square feet, maybe 300. We made it work; it was actually kinda nice.

So yeah, I think there's a market for this kind of thing.

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Families should ask for large space only when they can't function properly without it. For example, outside North America, you would be hard pressed to find any urban household to own a massive "island" in the middle of a kitchen, which many housewives seem to love so much and can't live without. Yet the absence of huge kitchens didn't prevent the Italians, the French, the Chinese etc to make far more sophisticated cuisine requiring more than just marinate-and-then-put-in-the-oven kind of skills. If you need a huge island just to chop peppers, make mac and cheese and sandwiches for your kids (in addition to show visitors you have a huge, bright and enviable modern kitchen), that's just a sad waste of space. It is like owning the world's most advanced computer just to browse the internet.

Yeah, people aren't buying these units to spend all their time at home watching TV on the couch with downtown Toronto at their doorstep.

grey said:

Yeah, people aren't buying these units to spend all their time at home watching TV on the couch with downtown Toronto at their doorstep.

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But when they do stay home, the smaller suites make every inch of the flat screen TV count.

kkgg7 said:

these 495sf closets are exactly what many of the young professionals need and can afford: a queen bed, a TV, a sofa, a fridge and a microwave, what else do they need? Not everyone needs a 2000 sf glofied Victorian house with a fenced backyard in the suburb.

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So there's no middle ground for you; it's either 495 sq ft closet or 2000 sq ft Victorian house? You get to a point where the amount of living space available impinges on one's quality of life. Some condo developers have gone too far in their relentless goal of profits. I don't think living in Japanese sized units is something we should be working towards. Where does it end: 100 sq ft boxes with no windows? Living in London, UK has taught me that this isn't a path we want to go down.

^^ Your point is well-taken, but again I think there's something to be said about the almost ingenuity of living in smaller spaces. It's not for everyone: if you have a family, if you and your partner have a big dog, if you and/or your partner need to work out of the home sometimes, etc. then it's not the best option. But living in small spaces can be, to sound somewhat dramatic, liberating.

In North America we really make a lot out of how large our living space is. After travelling around a bit (as I see you have as well), I learned that that's not at all standard, and it changed my perspective on how much I was willing to pay for, simply, space.

Anyways, that's just a long way of repeating what I said earlier, which is just that I think there's a market for this, and that it's a good idea.

I think the only valid point suburbanites have when the urban-suburban argument arises is more space. I think it's way overrated. What the hell do you need all that space for?? I can speak for both sides. I used to live downtown but moved to Markham to a 3400 sf house because of the birth of my son. Like most suburbanites, my main (and only) reason for the move is more space. Now that I have lived here for a half year, I am bored to sh*t beyond recognition. The place is no different than a ghost town; everyone stays in their houses, watch TV, where driving to grocer shop is the highlight of the week. I had to drive to downtown on a weekly basis just so I won't go die of boredom. Maybe it's just me, but I like to be in the middle of the action, even if I am not part of the action. I just need to look outside my window and see the traffic and people and that would satisfy me. Here I look outside and see grass and houses. In the summer, I could stroll or take a run along the lake, soak in the city buzz on King West, catch a ball game etc etc. Here a walk to the neighborhood park is the most excitement you'd get.

Of course, the suburbanites are gonna come at me and put up an argument. Besides more space, what else ya got??

Well, once in a while I'd like to scratch my arse without hitting my girlfriend in the head with my elbow and maybe have somewhere to put my winter coat, boots and clothes when it's summer, perhaps a spot to put some groceries so I don't have to grocery shop every damn day, maybe somewhere to put the books i have read and or am reading, how about a few drawers in my bedroom for my socks and such and where will my girlfriend go when my buddies come over to watch the game?

Life without some space becomes very claustophobic and its hard on relationships but your right, I guess these things aren't that important downtown - you just go out....,all the time.

Big Daddy said:

Well, once in a while I'd like to scratch my arse without hitting my girlfriend in the head with my elbow and maybe have somewhere to put my winter coat, boots and clothes when it's summer, perhaps a spot to put some groceries so I don't have to grocery shop every damn day, maybe somewhere to put the books i have read and or am reading, how about a few drawers in my bedroom for my socks and such and where will my girlfriend go when my buddies come over to watch the game?

Life without some space becomes very claustophobic and its hard on relationships but your right, I guess these things aren't that important downtown - you just go out....,all the time.

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If I'm reading this right, your main point is...more space?

Unless you work at home, you could save maybe 1-2 hrs of commute per day (both directions). Multiple that by 5 per week, 20 per month, 240 per year. How much time can you save where you could use to do other things, how much gas and emission into the atmostphere can you avoid? I guess that won't matter as long as you can scratch your arse without hitting your girlfriend in the head.

Big Daddy said:

Well, once in a while I'd like to scratch my arse without hitting my girlfriend in the head with my elbow and maybe have somewhere to put my winter coat, boots and clothes when it's summer, perhaps a spot to put some groceries so I don't have to grocery shop every damn day, maybe somewhere to put the books i have read and or am reading, how about a few drawers in my bedroom for my socks and such and where will my girlfriend go when my buddies come over to watch the game?

Life without some space becomes very claustophobic and its hard on relationships but your right, I guess these things aren't that important downtown - you just go out....,all the time.

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Yeah, those things can happen, and if that's what's going on you need more space. But the way my partner and I thought about it was: what do we value? Space and things owned weren't at the top--although they are in their own ways desirable--so we took a gamble and for a period of time sacrificed them. It worked out well. I'm currently living out the country, so our living arrangements have changed; but if we go kid-less I'd consider going for a smaller space again.

So much of it comes down to simply how much crap you have. We had...a lot of crap. Getting rid of a lot of it was a relief, even though I wouldn't have thought so at the time.

TOBoy said:

I think the only valid point suburbanites have when the urban-suburban argument arises is more space. I think it's way overrated. What the hell do you need all that space for?? I can speak for both sides. I used to live downtown but moved to Markham to a 3400 sf house because of the birth of my son. Like most suburbanites, my main (and only) reason for the move is more space. Now that I have lived here for a half year, I am bored to sh*t beyond recognition. The place is no different than a ghost town; everyone stays in their houses, watch TV, where driving to grocer shop is the highlight of the week. I had to drive to downtown on a weekly basis just so I won't go die of boredom. Maybe it's just me, but I like to be in the middle of the action, even if I am not part of the action. I just need to look outside my window and see the traffic and people and that would satisfy me. Here I look outside and see grass and houses. In the summer, I could stroll or take a run along the lake, soak in the city buzz on King West, catch a ball game etc etc. Here a walk to the neighborhood park is the most excitement you'd get.

Of course, the suburbanites are gonna come at me and put up an argument. Besides more space, what else ya got??

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Ok, I'll bite. I think it depends where you live in Markham. I have a smaller house (bungalow) in an older area, but I can walk five minutes to the old Main Street where there are good pubs, restaurants, local businesses, etc., and I can walk to the rouge valley a couple of minutes, where you're as close to "wilderness" as you'll get in the 905 (there are lots of trails, and we have deer, foxes, etc. in the neighbourhood). All along my street are huge mature trees, I can walk to the GO station and go downtown for work or whenever else I want, I can take a VIVA bus and be in a big mall (Markville) in a few minutes, and there are GREAT Indian and Chinese restuarants nearby. Sure, I have to head to the city for some things, and I have to drive to go to some places, but I generally prefer living in a smallish house in Markham to a smaller condo or semi in Toronto -- or a much bigger house in Scarborough or Durham -- that would be equivalent in price.

That being said, I don't think I'd want to live in a house being built along the fringes of the town, like near Major Mac or east of 9th line. I hate it when people talk about suburbs like they are just one homogenous block. Location makes a big difference in the suburbs as well, and this is reflected in prices.

Miscreant said:

In North America we really make a lot out of how large our living space is. After travelling around a bit (as I see you have as well), I learned that that's not at all standard, and it changed my perspective on how much I was willing to pay for, simply, space.

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The concept of 'living space' is so different in Asia and Europe than it is here in North America. Perhaps it's due to climate, population density, availability of space, but in many of those places it'd be unheard of to entertain, socialize or simply enjoy one's home in the way we do in North America where our living spaces often multi-task as entertainment centre, place of work or repose, community centre etc.

You can romanticize inner-city shoebox compartments as the ultimate of enlightened living but let's not kid ourselves that it's a choice between the extremes of urban pod or suburban wasteland. In many of the more established exurban neighbourhoods you will find front porches where neighbours hang with each other on summer nights, and many signs of the strong support systems/social groups that communities provide.... what's more, these areas are increasingly diverse and 'urban' as population density grows and as urbanites are pushed out of the city due to rising costs and diminishing returns.

^^
I heard the term "shoebox" so many times, makes me wonder what size is considered "shoebox" in your opinion?

I would think 550-600sf for a single person, 600-800sf for a couple with no kid, 900-1200sf for a three/four person family should be quite sufficent. Do you think that should be considered "shoebox" instead?

And no, with rising prices, people will not be pushed into suburbs. They will come to accept smaller and more efficient use of space. Don't you seen the density of downtown is increasing, instead of decreasing? While we may never get to where Manhattan is like today, we will trend in that direction.

I have ask this question many times on this forum and no one have given me an answer: Why do families need a family room AND a livingroom, when you never need to use both at the same time? Why do they need a "mud room"? What's the point of having a diningroom when the dining table can just be placed into the kitchen or the livingroom? Yea, sometimes you need to entertain friends, but how often do you really need a 8 seat table, like once/twice a year, and we have a room just for that?

North Americans demand too much space because they think they need a room for each function of the family, instead of combining different functions together and thus making better use of space.

Go ask the Chinese immigrants why they choose a 2200 sq ft home in Markham over a 900 sq condo downtown Toronto!

kkgg7 said:

^^
And no, with rising prices, people will not be pushed into suburbs. They will come to accept smaller and more efficient use of space. Don't you seen the density of downtown is increasing, instead of decreasing? While we may never get to where Manhattan is like today, we will trend in that direction.

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The densities of many GTHA communities are growing, not just downtown Toronto... and as for Manhattan only the very richest of families can afford even limited space there anymore so it's probabably not the best point of comparison. Most 'average' families in NYC are living in the outer boroughs and suburbs because it is more affordable and there is more space to actually 'live'.

As for Toronto you do have to question just which segments of the population are fueling the increase in density. I do not have the numbers but I'm highly doubtful that it's that of young families.

kkgg7 said:

I have ask this question many times on this forum and no one have given me an answer: Why do families need a family room AND a livingroom, when you never need to use both at the same time? Why do they need a "mud room"? What's the point of having a diningroom when the dining table can just be placed into the kitchen or the livingroom? Yea, sometimes you need to entertain friends, but how often do you really need a 8 seat table, like once/twice a year, and we have a room just for that?

North Americans demand too much space because they think they need a room for each function of the family, instead of combining different functions together and thus making better use of space.

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I agree it's not necessarily about 'needs', it's about wants... and it sounds like you're pretty judgemental about what others may want. As I said in a previous post there is a cultural ideal in North America of raising a family in a large family home surrounded by a supportive community and with access to amenities that are geared for family use. This simply isn't to be found in the city (affordably), in the view of many, which is why families tend to leave.

Tewder said:

I agree it's not necessarily about 'needs', it's about wants... and it sounds like you're pretty judgemental about what others may want. As I said in a previous post there is a cultural ideal in North America of raising a family in a large family home surrounded by a supportive community and with access to amenities that are geared for family use. This simply isn't to be found in the city (affordably), in the view of many, which is why families tend to leave.

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I don't have a problem with people "wanting" largest space. It is a personal choice. However, I do have a problem with them complaining that 2000sf houses with large lots are too expensive in Toronto. To me, it is like complaining about a Chanel bag is not affordable.

If families settle with what they "need", they will find housing price in Toronto completely affordable.