Toronto, Capital of North America?

[Tewder]

Canadians are more tolerant of higher prices for the same product because that's what they are always forced to pay.

Amen to that! If I weren't so completely inured to it by now I'd be shocked at how often the Canadian consumer gets screwed by our own policies, how we consistently turn a blind eye to monopolies that exploit us and how we consistently allow the government to control things it shouldn't such as the LCBO... and we pay the highest cel phone rates in the world for god' sake!! I could go on (and on) but what's the point because there is nothing that can be done about any of it, which is sort of part of the problem to begin with.

Canadians turn a blind eye to a lot of crap in order to justify health care, and by and large our governments exploit this. Cynical point of view, I know.

 

[RC8]

Funny you say $11,000 while this site says $30,000-$40,000:



http://solarpanelspower.net/solar-panels/solar-panels-cost

Love my car btw. I don't know how I would get my kids to school without it. Do you have any better suggestions? Should I bicycle them there in the winter?

I specified 'would cost me'. I use about 1/3 - 1/4 of the energy of the average Canadian household. The 30-40,000 dollar price in the document you quote appears to include a connection to the grid so that you can sell off energy you are not using, too. The article points out that after you consider the tax-breaks, savings, and rebates, the price comes down to around 10,000 dollars for most households (reads: incredibly inefficient and rather wasteful detached houses).

As for your car and kids - are you saying your school doesn't offer school buses? How far away do you live from your kids' school, how far away do you live from your work? If you live very far away from both I'm afraid that's your choice and I don't think the government should be subsidising your lifestyle.

Also, many schools in the province are actually trying to ban cars from dropping off and picking up kids, since the pollution caused by the idling cars is very damaging to their lungs and makes school areas some of the most polluted in Ontario.

That said, I still think there's a place for private vehicles - I just think their owners should be paying for all their costs, and that pedestrian/bike-friendly high-density infrastructure and built environments should always be prioritised. It's funny how conservatives are so often adamant on spending resources we don't have, while preaching the contrary.

 

[CN Tower]

I specified 'would cost me'. I use about 1/3 - 1/4 of the energy of the average Canadian household.

Your choice. I use probably 3x or 4x. My choice. Great country isn't it?

(reads: incredibly inefficient and rather wasteful detached houses).

You think my house is inefficient and wasteful? I could care less. My kids love it.

As for your car and kids - are you saying your school doesn't offer school buses?

No. I am saying that I like to drive my kids to school to spend time with them. You got a problem with that Mr. Eco-Policeman?

Also, many schools in the province are actually trying to ban cars from dropping off and picking up kids, since the pollution caused by the idling cars is very damaging to their lungs and makes school areas some of the most polluted in Ontario.

I call BS on this one. Huge BS.

That said, I still think there's a place for private vehicles - I just think their owners should be paying for all their costs, and that pedestrian/bike-friendly high-density infrastructure and built environments should always be prioritised. It's funny how conservatives are so often adamant on spending resources we don't have, while preaching the contrary.

Bikes are great. I have a sense I actually use mine more than you do. Recreationally. Not when I want to get somewhere in a hurry though, take my kids to hockey practice at 6am, my wife to dinner in the evening, or entertain clients. That would be absurd. You realize this is 8-months of winter Toronto you inhabit right?

'Conservatives'? Who said I was conservative?

 

[RC8]

I use my bike almost every day to commute. Even during 5 of our '8 winter months' (December, January, and February are tricky due to the snow). When I don't, I walk or take the streetcar. All my life (except 2 horrid years I lived in Mississauga) I've lived within walking distance from a grocery store or supermarket, so I walk to get groceries and such (in winter or not).

Some evidence for the 'bullshit' you call:

http://pollutionfree.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/car-free-schools-–-only-in-canada-you-say/

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/18054--car-air

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/article/707148--walking-to-school-better-in-every-way-for-kids

Some of the most polluted places in our cities are in front of schools, in large part because of the idling cars of parents dropping off their kids. Children are more vulnerable to air pollution than adults because they breathe faster and inhale more air for each kilogram of body weight. Being inside a car is no protection from air pollution either. The International Center for Technology Assessment reports that exposure to most auto pollutants is higher inside vehicles than at the side of the road.

As a kid I loved to be dropped at school by my father, and school was conveniently located on his way to work. It took him less than 15 minutes to get to work, and my school was down a very steep hill but only a 6 minute drive away. I understand why you would prefer doing it, but I believe we must live within our means.

If you use 100x the amount of energy that the average Canadian household uses that's entirely up to you. If you want to drive a F1 car again, up to you. I don't really care. I just don't think the infrastructure to sustain such lifestyles should be subsidised by the government, that's all.

If you are causing deaths by sitting on an idling vehicle in crowded intersections that's fine, but healthcare costs will increase as a result for pedestrians AND drivers, and you shouldn't be offended to foot some of the bill. I use 100x more electricity than someone living in a Venezuelan slum, but I'm willing to pay over the odds to get that electricity from sources we can more or less sustainably harvest, as opposed to carelessly using up resources we simply shouldn't be building our long-term future on.

To make a long story short: you should be entitled to buy whatever you can afford, but you should pay its real price. Not saying you specifically don't, btw. But most suburban communities in North America (think Mississauga, Etobicoke, Scarborough) are kept financially afloat artificially through huge government tax-breaks and subsidies.

 

[gristle]

Look, it's fine that you are concerned, but the sources you cite are hardly "evidence." The fact is, automobiles pollute far less than ever before. Gasoline is cleaner, cars are more fuel-efficient and I have yet to hear of a kid dropping dead in front of a school yard.

If someone wants to spend their time in their car, or stuck in traffic in their car, that's their choice. If they consume power and can pay high electricity bills, then that's their choice. Since it's their problem and their cost, I don't see any reason to finger point. If you want to use little electricity, go right ahead. That's your choice.

And before any accusations fly, I live right smack downtown, don't own a car, have not owned one for fifteen years, walk, cycle, use transit and live in a 700 square foot condo with energy saving appliances. That's my choice - but not chosen so as to lecture others about their choices.

 

[RC8]

Did you even read my posts?

I say:

"If you use 100x the amount of energy that the average Canadian household uses that's entirely up to you. If you want to drive a F1 car again, up to you. I don't really care. I just don't think the infrastructure to sustain such lifestyles should be subsidised by the government, that's all."

How am I lecturing anyone? I'm merely pointing out that in Canada the government socialises the costs of unsustainable living, and any efforts it takes to correct this (such as the green energy act) are supported by me. If you can't cope with the real price of unsustainable living there are many options out there, and if you can, chances are you are being taxed enough to make up for it.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I just don't think the infrastructure to sustain such lifestyles should be subsidised by the government, that's all."

And I couldn't agree with you more. But as long as we are still living in an environment where the amount of the population still enjoys that lifestyle, and wants to keep it to the very last second, we have to acknowledge the fact that government policies are going to keep that fantasy alive as long as it can. Although the shift is obvious at this point. When the tipping point comes, I don't know.

You're right that we encourage the very things we don't like, by subsidizing it. If road congestion in the city is causing all this harm to the environment and costing billions per year in lost productivity, not to mention just being annoying...why do we continue to subsidize it?

Yet we claim to want to encourage more people to use public transit, which is a much more efficient infrastructure...and discourage that by charging them huge up-front user fees for using it.

If we walked the walk, we would charge up-front user fees for private vehicles using the public road infrastructure, and no upfront user fees for the public transit infrastructure (100% subsidized).

 

[neubilder]

Denmark users a much larger proportion (almost 50%) of coal than Ontario (<15%).

Denmark's per-capita energy consumption is less that half that of Canada's. And Denmark is rapidly moving away from coal and gas towards sustainable sources.

 

[gristle]

Actually, Denmark has slowed considerably its development of "sustainable" sourcing - such as wind. Also, Germany is making a very large investment in coal because of nuclear fears.

 

[RC8]

freshcutgrass, even a competent bike lane system downtown would go a long way into providing an alternative to cars. Many European cities have spent sizable amounts of money in this type of infrastructure and have subsequently greatly reduced gridlock. As things stand there's next to no biking infrastructure in between queen and the railways.

Bike lanes increase land value in neighbourhoods, too, whereas arterial roads and highways usually decrease it.

 

[neubilder]

I use about 1/3 - 1/4 of the energy of the average Canadian household. .

Your choice. I use probably 3x or 4x. My choice. Great country isn't it?


You think my house is inefficient and wasteful? I could care less. My kids love it.


No. I am saying that I like to drive my kids to school to spend time with them. You got a problem with that Mr. Eco-Policeman?

I call BS on this one. Huge BS.

Bikes are great. I have a sense I actually use mine more than you do. Recreationally. Not when I want to get somewhere in a hurry though, take my kids to hockey practice at 6am, my wife to dinner in the evening, or entertain clients. That would be absurd. You realize this is 8-months of winter Toronto you inhabit right?

'Conservatives'? Who said I was conservative?

RC8, I completely agree with you.
You can't reason with people who believe it is their right to waste "3x or 4x" the energy of the average Canadian household. (It's people like this that explain how Rob Ford got elected.) The Danes have learned that for every person who rides their bike to work, conserves energy, and generally tries to do the right thing, there is a contingent of individuals who will take advantage of it by overconsuming, rendering their efforts futile. The only way to curb this behaviour is through imposing significant tariffs.
Canada is still a frontier country, but eventually this will change. It has to.

 

[CN Tower]

RC8, I completely agree with you.
You can't reason with people who believe it is their right to waste "3x or 4x" the energy of the average Canadian household. (It's people like that his that explain how Rob Ford got elected.) The Danes have learned that for every person who rides their bike to work, conserves energy, and generally tries to do the right thing, there is a contingent of individuals who will take advantage of it by overconsuming, rendering their efforts futile. The only way to curb this behaviour is through imposing significant tariffs.
Canada is still a frontier country, but eventually this will change. It has to.

Would agree with you completely if i didn't pay 4x the consumption tax and property associated with my energy and gas usage and probably 100x the income tax. Hey, if you want me to pay disproportionately more tax on consumption I'll gladly do it but only if you get my income tax in line with my proportionate use of provincial and federal services. Sound fair? I suspect you'll be rebating me a significant chunk of money.

Not sure I'd want that for our society though as it would likely not enable us to provide services I deem essential like Universal Health Care and a comfortable safety net for people who need a little help.

'People like this'....please save your labels. You have no idea what I'm like. I'm just a message board avatar sharing thoughts on this great city we inhabit.

 

[spider]

RC8 asks,

Did you even read my posts?

Yes I did but I will refrain in the future as I am clearly not worthy. You have made it crystal clear that you are living such a righteous life that I couldn't possibly aspire to match.

Smugness, thy name is RC8.

 

[neubilder]

Would agree with you completely if i didn't pay 4x the consumption tax and property associated with my energy and gas usage and probably 100x the income tax. Hey, if you want me to pay disproportionately more tax on consumption I'll gladly do it but only if you get my income tax in line with my proportionate use of provincial and federal services. Sound fair? I suspect you'll be rebating me a significant chunk of money.

Not sure I'd want that for our society though as it would likely not enable us to provide services I deem essential like Universal Health Care and a comfortable safety net for people who need a little help.

'People like this'....please save your labels. You have no idea what I'm like. I'm just a message board avatar sharing thoughts on this great city we inhabit.

How does one consume four times the energy of the average household?

 

[neubilder]

RC8 asks,

Yes I did but I will refrain in the future as I am clearly not worthy. You have made it crystal clear that you are living such a righteous life that I couldn't possibly aspire to match.

Smugness, thy name is RC8.

RCB sounds reasonable to me. Your statements sound defensive bordering on hostile though.