Toronto, Capital of North America?

[RC8]

Denmark have done everything McGuinty has and more (many more taxes and even bigger subsidies for green energy) over the past 10 years and their economy has continued to expand year after year at much higher rates than most developed countries (US and Canada included).

Country by country and state by state, there isn't a clear correlation between taxes and economic growth. We are also spending a lot less money today in building green energy than we spent to build our current fossil-fuel dependent society. All those highways didn't build themselves, and we periodically bail out car-makers and provide expensive services to suburban homes at subsidised rates.

The reason why electricity rates in Ontario are not competitive has nothing to do with the green energy act and everything to do with Mike Harris' era reestructuring of Ontario Hydro. Ontario had one of the cheapest electricity rates until dogmatic politicians screwed it all up trying to privatise it.

 

[kkgg7]

Denmark have done everything McGuinty has and more (many more taxes and even bigger subsidies for green energy) over the past 10 years and their economy has continued to expand year after year at much higher rates than most developed countries (US and Canada included).

Country by country and state by state, there isn't a clear correlation between taxes and economic growth. We are also spending a lot less money today in building green energy than we spent to build our current fossil-fuel dependent society. All those highways didn't build themselves, and we periodically bail out car-makers and provide expensive services to suburban homes at subsidised rates.

The reason why electricity rates in Ontario are not competitive has nothing to do with the green energy act and everything to do with Mike Harris' era reestructuring of Ontario Hydro. Ontario had one of the cheapest electricity rates until dogmatic politicians screwed it all up trying to privatise it.

Denmark users a much larger proportion (almost 50%) of coal than Ontario (<15%).

 

[EMP1729]

Re: Government Subsidies on "green tech"

Government provides subsidies for farming, fishing, automotive, aerospace, oil & gas, mining, nuclear industries, etc etc, or whatever sector of industry that has a good lobby group. So why get in a huff about green tech?

 

[freshcutgrass]

Government provides subsidies for farming, fishing, automotive, aerospace, oil & gas, mining, nuclear industries, etc etc, or whatever sector of industry that has a good lobby group. So why get in a huff about green tech?

Your point is well taken. But then again, we get into a huff about everything else...so why not green tech?

The real problem with green tech is not costs and efficiencies. It's like the whole organic food movement...they sound like noble intentions, but look behind it, and you will find it has been hijacked by the greedy corporations who are good at fooling the general public.

There's nothing wrong with promoting clean energy like wind and solar, but if the government were really serious, you would see far more promotion of green energy such as geo-exchange technology, which is actually far more cost efficient and capable of being implemented on a wider scale. Wind and solar just happens to be a more "sexy" technology that is on the monads of the general public, and therefore has political cache.

 

[kkgg7]

The real problem with green tech is not costs and efficiencies. It's like the whole organic food movement...they sound like noble intentions, but look behind it, and you will find it has been hijacked by the greedy corporations who are good at fooling the general public.

Yes, we need to look past the termonology and dive into the economics here. Not everything "green" makes sense, and there is nothing wrong with using some coal.
And not only corporations, but also ambitious politicians using it as a political capital to go up. Many average people are gullible and were led to believe "solar" and "wind" are perfect alternative to fossil. This can't be farther from the truth.

Solar and wind will always constitute a small percentage of our consumption. They are unpredictable, costly and will never be able to provide baseload power. The tricky think with electricity is that it can not be stored, and the way solar and wind works is beyond human control and not compatible with our demand either. To promote solar and wind at any cost, and by as much as possible is detrimental to our economy and everyone's benefits.

 

[EMP1729]

Why should Ontario miss the boat on green tech though? For example, while solar may not be a good option here, it is in places like California. So why not manufacture solar panels here, perfect the technology and export? Why not innovate instead of being a branch plant province?

Oh, you can "store" electricity. Google "Grid Energy Storage". There are numerous ways you can "store" electricity. Who said you need to be able to store electric charge only?

Sure there are inefficiencies, but that is the whole point in improving technology.

 

[RC8]

Denmark users a much larger proportion (almost 50%) of coal than Ontario (<15%).

They also use less than half the electricity and fuel per capita, and electricity costs are much much higher. If you want to look at disgustingly expensive power generation methods look at the nuclear industry by all means. They promised cheap energy and never delivered it.

Banning coal from Ontario is saving us money as a whole, the respiratory illnesses of Ontarians were much more expensive to treat. Even if we were spending more than we are saving, the balance is very positive and justified.

But all of that is next to irrelevant, our hydro rates would be significantly lower if not for the Harris' government's immense screw up. All in all it's not such a bad thing, high oil prices and high electricity prices lead to better societal development than the opposite - which produces wasteful environmentally criminal suburbia.

 

[freshcutgrass]

there is nothing wrong with using some coal.

There's plenty wrong with it.

Arguing over what way to generate electricity ignores the more important issue of finding ways of reducing consumption. It costs nothing to not generate kilowatts not consumed. If the government just subsidized the conversion of every house in Ontario that is heated by electricity to geo-echange, it would illuminate an entire nuclear generating station worth of consumption...not to mention the load on the grid system that distributes it.

 

[vz64]

kkgg, the Ontario green energy program (that you call "the biggest joke") is a carbon copy of the Germany's feed-in tariff program. You so often refer to German economy in your post as a perfect example to follow...

Despite all shortcomings of the program, it made Germany one of the world leaders in developing and adopting green technologies and now Ontario is catching up. Yes, it does make our hydro bill a bit more expensive (marginally at this point), but isn’t it your own opinion that we should not rely on cheap labour or cheap resources to be globally competitive?

Why should Ontario miss the boat on green tech though? For example, while solar may not be a good option here, it is in places like California. ....

Actually, it is a common misconception that the amount of solar radiation in Canada is very low; the Toronto photovoltaic potential is very close to Miami and way better than in any German city:

 

[EMP1729]

Actually, it is a common misconception that the amount of solar radiation in Canada is very low; the Toronto photovoltaic potential is very close to Miami and way better than in any German city:

Ok, well, it is even better then for Ontario to invest in solar tech!

 

[vz64]

Indeed! I thought many would jump with the opportunity to make such a good investment (never mind some minor benefits, such as contributing to a cleaner environment...)--for a typical, roof-installed MicroFit system, it is close to 15% ROI. Yet, it looks like I am the only person in the neibourhood who did it...

 

[kkgg7]

kkgg, the Ontario green energy program (that you call "the biggest joke") is a carbon copy of the Germany's feed-in tariff program. You so often refer to German economy in your post as a perfect example to follow...

Despite all shortcomings of the program, it made Germany one of the world leaders in developing and adopting green technologies and now Ontario is catching up. Yes, it does make our hydro bill a bit more expensive (marginally at this point), but isn’t it your own opinion that we should not rely on cheap labour or cheap resources to be globally competitive?

Yes, but McGuinty did was given all the contracts to Samsung in his self-glorified green campaign.

I am not against renewable energy, all I am saying is it is premature to commercialize wind and solar on the large scale at present. I spend $30 on hydro each month, so even if it doubles, it won't affect me that much. However, it does affect the competitiveness of Ontario as a major manufacturing base.

In term of solar technological, even China is years ahead of Canada. We hardly have anything.

 

[kkgg7]

Indeed! I thought many would jump with the opportunity to make such a good investment (never mind some minor benefits, such as contributing to a cleaner environment...)--for a typical, roof-installed MicroFit system, it is close to 15% ROI. Yet, it looks like I am the only person in the neibourhood who did it...

No solar power can make any money without huge government subsidy right now, at least in Canada, as the power generation cost is 5-10 times higher than conventional technology.
I don't know how you made your 15% ROI.

 

[kkgg7]

They also use less than half the electricity and fuel per capita, and electricity costs are much much higher. If you want to look at disgustingly expensive power generation methods look at the nuclear industry by all means. They promised cheap energy and never delivered it.

Banning coal from Ontario is saving us money as a whole, the respiratory illnesses of Ontarians were much more expensive to treat. Even if we were spending more than we are saving, the balance is very positive and justified.

But all of that is next to irrelevant, our hydro rates would be significantly lower if not for the Harris' government's immense screw up. All in all it's not such a bad thing, high oil prices and high electricity prices lead to better societal development than the opposite - which produces wasteful environmentally criminal suburbia.

I agree with you on the consumption part.
Canadians use way too much energy on a per capita basis (please don't use the excuse of "it is a cold country"). On one hand, people seem to care about the environment and do trivial things like recycling, buying so-called eco-friendly products. On the other, they live in 2000sf mansions, heat the entire room so warm that they wear T-shirts in the winter, and drive cars to do everything.

It is just ironic too me.

as to the health issue related to coal, I think it is exaggerated. Ontario uses 14% of power from coal. If that's too high, people around the world would be dying from lung cancer now. The second hand smoke and the dirty pollutes from cars probably do use more harm that those limited coal plants so far away from major cities.

 

[RC8]

Yes, but McGuinty did was given all the contracts to Samsung in his self-glorified green campaign.

I am not against renewable energy, all I am saying is it is premature to commercialize wind and solar on the large scale at present. I spend $30 on hydro each month, so even if it doubles, it won't affect me that much. However, it does affect the competitiveness of Ontario as a major manufacturing base.

In term of solar technological, even China is years ahead of Canada. We hardly have anything.

Did you move to Toronto yesterday?

Before the Mike Harris conservative government electricity was regulated by the government and kept at 4.3 cents kwh/m. After de-regulation prices soared uncontrollably and have doubled since.

If you want to blame someone for the rising energy prices, you must blame the conservatives that radically changed the system in an ignorant dogmatic way just like it was done in California and elsewhere. Privatised electricity has never been more successful than public electricity anywhere, and the private component is the reason why we now pay such high electricity prices in Ontario.

The Green Energy Act is not responsible at all for the high prices, and strategically makes sense in Ontario. What Ontario used to do back when electricity was completely publicly run was to give preferential prices to manufacturers. Under the current system this is much difficult to do. A professor very close to me is in the Ontario Energy Board and participated in the privatisation process... he calls it one of the biggest mistakes in the province's history, even though back then he was mostly convinced by its supporters.