News   May 24, 2024
Shoppes on Steeles Redevelopment Proposed in Markham
 3.7K     2 
News   May 24, 2024
Architects and More Open Up for Doors Open
 793     0 
News   May 24, 2024
Lifetime Developments Goes Beyond Construction to Build Community with the Lifeline Foundation
 375     0 

TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

4414, 4421 are running on the 504 King today.


NOTE : I know that they are running the new streetcars on the 504 because they want all of the Flexity's out.
 
nfitz said:
I don't see what in that says that they'll get new cars no matter what.

Someone would have to cough up the $300 million to buy them.
Click to expand...
I wonder if the TTC can rework their capital budget, use the PTIF money for capital projects today and reallocate that money to these cars. The PTIF money had to be spent by 2019 so it can't be used directly to fund more cars.

The budget was reworked to have half of the 2016 novas funded by PTIF instead of the original pot of money. They could use that money to fund a bunch of the cars coming in now and take the original money to buy new cars. The question is how much is left after all the new buses and ATO project.

TransitBart said:
Isn't Russell getting one bay re-built too?
Click to expand...
Not in the original plan. Every car will have to visit Leslie for their periodic maintenance. It's the only place where everything can be done.
 
Steve X said:
I wonder if the TTC can rework their capital budget, use the PTIF money for capital projects today and reallocate that money to these cars. The PTIF money had to be spent by 2019 so it can't be used directly to fund more cars.

The budget was reworked to have half of the 2016 novas funded by PTIF instead of the original pot of money. They could use that money to fund a bunch of the cars coming in now and take the original money to buy new cars. The question is how much is left after all the new buses and ATO project.
Click to expand...

The real question is - why the hell are we asking this question about whether to buy streetcars while the streetcar network becomes un-viable by stealth lack of vehicles.

Decision tree:

1. Streetcars - in or out?
2. If in - come to grips with left turns, transit malls and parking. I'm a driver generally, but enough bullshit. I'm also a resident and it's impossible or shitty or hard (take your pick depending on the trip) to get around.
3. If we told the populace that the subway was running with ox carts because replacement subway vehicles were not available - witness the 503 and 502 in the past two years - there would be a riot. What is different about this? None in my books. And why the political indifference?

MTO may need to take over the system before indifference at the political level blows it to kingdom come. There are simply not enough champions for the system in the city.
 
there are still unknowns - when will TTC and Bombardier agree on how many compensation cars will be built, will TTC agree not to exercise the same number of options (since BBD would probably be supplying well under cost by then, it would reduce TTC's $ ask to the city and mitigate a yard crisis), what will happen if MDBF not attained by November (estimate for 60th car).

As to why we waited so long for new cars - well Mel Lastman was a "taxfighter" mayor interested in subways (just like now) and Giambrone wanted a 100pc low floor car with tighter than normal turn radius at a time when 70pc low floor was predominant in the market. Maybe the ALRVs could have been refitted with a panto and an accessible module in the middle as other systems have done. Not worth dwelling on now since Toronto refuses to learn from past mistakes anyway.
 
I don't see TTC ordering anymore cars until 2020 or later. Until the last car is in service and all the cost are fully known, the order only then can be place with BBD or Siemens. What every the final number is, it will be deducted from the cost for the 60 plus cars to be order.

Based on current growth, TTC needs to order 70 cars and this will kick start the search for another smaller yard to hold up to 50 cars.

If TTC went to the market now like they should, that final cost would be apply to cover the order for more cars. If the open market got the order, then you take BBD/Siemens to the cleaners for real cost in delaying this order.

The way the city is holding TTC back these days in funding it, 2020 would be the most likely time frame for an other to be place on the open market for bids or be awarded. 2023-2024 would be most likely the time frame for the extra cars to show up from the open market.

4434 in service and may see 4435 here before the end of the month. 4435 will be in service early May.
 
drum118 said:
Based on current growth, TTC needs to order 70 cars and this will kick start the search for another smaller yard to hold up to 50 cars.
Click to expand...
That sounds about right. But that would mean they can only squeeze 214 cars in the 3 existing yards. TTC previously said they could do 264. Not that they haven't mislead before.

If they only need space for 10 extra cars, there is probably a few places they could park them at night. Exhibition loop. Hillcrest. Heck, they could park them along the tracks at St. Clair if everyone would agree that emergency vehicles don't actually drive down the tracks. Bay tunnel. Could drop 300 metres of temporary storage track somewhere.

Another thought is that there are at least 15 cars in service at all times (on 301, 304, 306, and 317). If TTC was right about 264, perhaps we could hit 279 before having to worry about storage.

drum118 said:
4434 in service and may see 4435 here before the end of the month. 4435 will be in service early May.
Click to expand...
Interesting to see that 4435 is shipping at least a week early. Perhaps there is hope - especially after the second production line starts pumping out vehicles this fall.
 
Last edited:
nfitz said:
That sounds about right. But that would mean they can only squeeze 214 cars in the 3 existing yards. TTC previously said they could do 264. Not that they haven't mislead before.

If they only need space for 10 extra cars, there is probably a few places they could park them at night. Exhibition loop. Hillcrest. Heck, they could park them along the tracks at St. Clair if everyone would agree that emergency vehicles don't actually drive down the tracks. Bay tunnel. Could drop 300 metres of temporary storage track somewhere.

Another thought is that there are at least 15 cars in service at all times (on 301, 304, 306, and 317). If TTC was right about 264, perhaps we could hit 279 before having to worry about storage.

Interesting to see that 4435 is shipping at least a week early. Perhaps there is hope - especially after the second production line starts pumping out vehicles this fall.
Click to expand...
279 is last year's estimate. TTC always come up with a new number every year. It could go past 300 within 20 years. Stuffing one here and there isn't going to be sufficient. If they can just stuff enough cars at Hillcrest for the 512, it will help a lot but TTC will still need another yard in the 2030s. Based on the current financing, they'll probably end up with a significant shortage before another yard is in service. Bus garages haven been overflowing for years and they still haven't started on McNicol yet.

The original numbers were 130 at Leslie, 64 at Roncy and 70 at Russell. They haven't change any track layout, did TTC under estimate their length so they can't fit 264 anymore?
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...e_24/Reports/New_Streetcar_Implem.pdf#page=16
 
TransitBart said:
It's an awfully long deadhead run from Leslie Barns to St Clair. Since they are taking out the trash - scrapping ALRVs and CLRVs - does this mean some Flexities are going to reside at Roncy?
Click to expand...
Streetcars don't deadhead when they go in and out of service unless there is a problem with the vehicle. It will be interesting to track them when they go into service from Lesslie for the first time.
 
Admiral Beez said:
Bombardier delays aside, maybe we shouldn't have waited until 2009 to order new streetcars? CLRV were built in 1977-1981, ALRV from 1987-1989. It's an amazing tribute to the TTC's mechanics that the CLRVs are still running. Can you imagine Air Canada running its fleet with units from the 1980s?
Click to expand...
The A320 fleet began to be delivered in January of 1990. The oldest planes have been in continuous service since then. So yes, I can imagine it.
 
Steve X said:
279 is last year's estimate. TTC always come up with a new number every year. It could go past 300 within 20 years. Stuffing one here and there isn't going to be sufficient. If they can just stuff enough cars at Hillcrest for the 512, it will help a lot but TTC will still need another yard in the 2030s. Based on the current financing, they'll probably end up with a significant shortage before another yard is in service. Bus garages haven been overflowing for years and they still haven't started on McNicol yet.

The original numbers were 130 at Leslie, 64 at Roncy and 70 at Russell. They haven't change any track layout, did TTC under estimate their length so they can't fit 264 anymore?
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...e_24/Reports/New_Streetcar_Implem.pdf#page=16
Click to expand...

There is no doubt in my mind that the Russell ladder track replacement two years back which resulted in Eastern Ave losing two traffic lanes was done the way it was to increase the length of the storage tracks to an even multiple of the Flexity size. The yard is 10 or 15% larger now.
 
Last edited:
TransitBart said:
There is no doubt in my mind that the Russell ladder track replacement two years back which resulted in Eastern ace losing two traffic lanes was done the way it was to increase the length of the storage tracks to an even multiple of the Flexity size. The yard is 10 or 15%larger now.
Click to expand...
The yard size count should have been estimated for after the modification. The modification was needed to avoid Flexity derailment. https://stevemunro.ca/2012/02/16/russell-carhouse-track-construction-plans/
That presentation was done in 2013 while the modification plan was in 2012.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top