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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Scarborough people just want transfer free ride to Scarborough town center. Is it so much to ask for?

The $5 billion for a 6km tunnel is just the result of downtown people opposed to any improvements to the whole 'Scarborough transit' project having voted down things such as adding a stop for the Lawrence station.

In the end, a subway station at STC is still better than any amount of LRTs.
 
dowlingm said:
Why ask questions to which you've already decided on the answer? If Scarborough deserves a transfer free ride, doesn't everyone?
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While I don't agree with him/her that the local network isn't equally important as that subway to SCC. It shouldn't have been one or the other to begin with

Scarborough was never asking for a subway for everyone. Just to its City Centre like similar areas of Toronto in North York Etobicoke (Islington) and Vaughan (well not Toronto, less density and less residents)

Connecting a different technology to the Sheppard stub was another line asking for trouble especially after the RT mess. And the extra transfer in this location before the Stubway really doesnt help commuters West of McCowan. The integration and transfer points matter to many here. Not just a short term vision to blanket a separate technology.

Anyway he/she is correct in saying a big part of why we are here with Tory's plan is the inability for opponents to comprehend this or even begin to care about these details for a longer term plan for Scarborough. Thankfully we are moving on. Even if it has to be the Tory plan.
 
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Sakraycore said:
Scarborough people just want transfer free ride to Scarborough town center. Is it so much to ask for?

The $5 billion for a 6km tunnel is just the result of downtown people opposed to any improvements to the whole 'Scarborough transit' project having voted down things such as adding a stop for the Lawrence station.

In the end, a subway station at STC is still better than any amount of LRTs.
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Thank you for this post. It is completely symptomatic of the Scarborough Subway / Respect Scarborough Psychosis.

"I want my candy, I am entitled to my candy. Is that too much to ask for? If you don't give it to me I'm going to be really loud and stomp my feet and get angry. And I'm going to take your candy so nobody will have candy because there isn't that much candy to go around. But I don't care because I am entitled to my candy."

Just because people in Scarborough want a transfer free-ride to STC, does it mean they should get it?

I want a transfer-free ride from downtown to St Clair and Dufferin - does that mean I should get it?

I want a transfer-free ride from Etobicoke to Eglinton and Don Mils - does that mean I should get it?

I want a transfer-free ride from East York to Finch and Jane - does that mean I should get it?

If I don't get these things, should I get angry and stop my feet and blame people that live downtown from preventing me from getting my precious transfer-free trips?

Why is ANYONE entitled to a transfer-free ride to a location that doesn't have the established ridership to warrant the most expensive form of mass transit known to man?

The sufferers of the Respect Scarborough Psychosis have zero interest in accepting facts which state that the ridership doesn't exist to justify a subway to STC. ALL they care about is their God-given right to a subway, stomping their feet, being really loud, being really angry, and putting their heads in the sand when facts are presented against their wants.

This isn't about RESPECT, it is about USING LIMITED TAX DOLLARS WISELY and ONLY where established ridership exists. I don't care if you live downtown or Scarborough or the moon, if you don't see allocating transit mode according to RIDERSHIP as an intelligent way to design a transit system, then you deserve your stupid neutered subway that will take decades to built and sucks up all available transit money that could have been better spent on a network of FULLY FUNDED, grade-separated LRT's that could be built in a fraction of the time.
 
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pstogios said:
Thank you for this post. It is completely symptomatic of the Scarborough Subway / Respect Scarborough Psychosis.

"I want my candy, I am entitled to my candy. Is that too much to ask for? If you don't give it to me I'm going to be really loud and stomp my feet and get angry. And I'm going to take your candy so nobody will have candy because there isn't that much candy to go around. But I don't care because I am entitled to my candy."

Just because people in Scarborough want a transfer free-ride to STC, does it mean they should get it?

I want a transfer-free ride from downtown to St Clair and Dufferin - does that mean I should get it?

I want a transfer-free ride from Etobicoke to Eglinton and Don Mils - does that mean I should get it?

I want a transfer-free ride from East York to Finch and Jane - does that mean I should get it?

If I don't get these things, should I get angry and stop my feet and blame people that live downtown from preventing me from getting my precious transfer-free trips?

Why is ANYONE entitled to a transfer-free ride to a location that doesn't have the established ridership to warrant the most expensive form of mass transit known to man?

The sufferers of the Respect Scarborough Psychosis have zero interest in accepting facts which state that the ridership doesn't exist to justify a subway to STC. ALL they care about is their God-given right to a subway, stomping their feet, being really loud, being really angry, and putting their heads in the sand when facts are presented against their wants.

This isn't about RESPECT, it is about USING LIMITED TAX DOLLARS WISELY and ONLY where established ridership exists. I don't care if you live downtown or Scarborough or the moon, if you don't see allocating transit mode according to RIDERSHIP as an intelligent way to design a transit system, then you deserve your stupid neutered subway that will take decades to built and sucks up all available transit money that could have been better spent on a network of FULLY FUNDED, grade-separated LRT's that could be built in a fraction of the time.
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Your hypothetical network of LRTs could be much better if it was a network of subway stations. Building a network of LRTs would just end up limiting Scarborough's long term growth.
 
Sakraycore said:
Your hypothetical network of LRTs could be much better if it was a network of subway stations. Building a network of LRTs would just end up limiting Scarborough's long term growth.
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At $5 billion for one subway stop, you could build all of the Sheppard East, Scarborough-Malvern (aka Crosstown East), and convert the SRT to LRT and extend to Malvern. About 56 stops.

So one $5 billion subway stop or a network of 56 stops?

And now you suggest a network subway stops? A small handful, versus hundreds of stops.

Surely building subway is going to end up limiting Scarborough's long-term growth - except for a very limited area around Scarborough Centre. (very limited because you need some kind of transit distributor around the Scarborough Centre station. I wonder if some local application of the kind of Skytrain equipment you see in Vancouver would work .... :)
 
nfitz said:
At $5 billion for one subway stop, you could build all of the Sheppard East, Scarborough-Malvern (aka Crosstown East), and convert the SRT to LRT and extend to Malvern. About 56 stops.

So one $5 billion subway stop or a network of 56 stops?

And now you suggest a network subway stops? A small handful, versus hundreds of stops.

Surely building subway is going to end up limiting Scarborough's long-term growth - except for a very limited area around Scarborough Centre. (very limited because you need some kind of transit distributor around the Scarborough Centre station. I wonder if some local application of the kind of Skytrain equipment you see in Vancouver would work .... :)
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Shepperd East LRT is long dead bro. They're not bringing this back for the foreseeable future (if ever). You're just saying to revive a couple of hypothetical lines that are really at odds with the reality.

I'm not denying that reviving all of them at once would be great though, but it's just not happening.
 
Sakraycore said:
Shepperd East LRT is long dead bro. They're not bringing this back for the foreseeable future (if ever). You're just saying to revive a couple of hypothetical lines that are really at odds with the reality.

I'm not denying that reviving all of them at once would be great though, but it's just not happening.
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Yeah I agree the extensive and appropriate-to-density network of LRT's is close to being dead. I'm glad we're in agreement that reviving them would be great.

The future of transit in Scarborough is in a collision course to become a complete disaster with this garbage one-stop subway extension and Scamtrack.
 
Sakraycore said:
Scarborough people just want transfer free ride to Scarborough town center. Is it so much to ask for?
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Scarborough people are unable to avail themselves of GO trains?

And before someone talks about the "fare premium", it's worth remembering that the entire city will be subsidizing this "transfer free ride" with Rob Ford's subway surcharge tax.
 
nfitz said:
At $5 billion for one subway stop, you could build all of the Sheppard East, Scarborough-Malvern (aka Crosstown East), and convert the SRT to LRT and extend to Malvern. About 56 stops.

So one $5 billion subway stop or a network of 56 stops?
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Very Ford-esque estimates. If the SSE is now $5 billion then the SLRT must be over $4 billion. The old LRT estimates are no longer even close to being valid and the subway and bus terminal is currently around $3.5 billion. Surely we could build a few more stops with an extra $500M to 1B but not enough that makes the transfer laden design worthwhile for the long term future of Scarborough.
 
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Sakraycore said:
Shepperd East LRT is long dead bro. They're not bringing this back for the foreseeable future (if ever).
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I admit it's not the healthiest project - but the patient isn't dead yet.

The funding commitment from the province is still in place, and it's at no cost to the city.

... request the Province of Ontario to confirm the timing for delivering the approved Sheppard East LRT extension, with committed funding under the Building Canada Fund and the Toronto-Metrolinx Light Rail Transit Master Agreement signed in 2012, in order to inform transit network planning and business case analysis for Scarborough's future transit network.​
that construction of the Sheppard East LRT would commence after the Finch West project is complete in late 2021, adjusting the in-service date approximately 4 years from the 2022 date previously announced.​

Presumably this would be a 2026 opening. Presumably they'd be releasing the RFQ around 2019, if they stick to that schedule.​

There's certainly concern - and some who are opposed to it. But with the current Scarborough subway plan, and SmartTrack, there's still a need for east-west transport on Sheppard. It's not like anyone is going to be throwing out money for a subway after the current multi-billion dollar imbroglio.

Anything is possible after the next election. I wouldn't think any project not advanced enough is at risk (Finch West, Hurontario, Hamilton LRT, Relief Line, Crosstown West, Crosstown East).

Who knows though - the Tories don't have much at stake in Scarborough. Perhaps they'd go for the cheaper LRT option on Sheppard, because they aren't going to lose any seats over it, and who knows, might actually get something out of it.

I daredn't predict the outcome of the project yet. But it's certainly not dead - yet at least.
 
OneCity said:
Very Ford-esque estimates. If the SSE is now $5 billion then the SLRT must be over $4 billion. The old LRT estimates are no longer even close to being valid and the subway and bus terminal is currently around $3.5 billion.
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I didn't come up with the $5 billion number - that was the amount suggested by the person I was responding too. I simply offered what else could be built for that. (Though $4.6 billion escalated (year of spending) dollars was the city's July 2016 estimate for the originally-planned 3-stop Scarborough subway extension to Sheppard/McCowan - if you add the proposed 4th stop near Eglinton/Brimley, you'd be looking at at very close to $5 billion).

Scarborough-Malvern LRT at $4 billion?

In the July 2016 Council Meeting that authorized further study of this, the cost was estimated to be $1.6 to $1.7 billion in escalated (year of spending) dollars - http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-94622.pdf

Meanwhile, at the same time the 1-stop subway extension to Scarborough Centre was put at $3.2 escalated (year of spending) dollars. That's about double the cost of the Scarborough-Malvern LRT. - http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-94597.pdf

Additionally, the LRT has a full EA already completed, and is nearly shovel ready. The costs are much more accurate than the subway, for which the EA is not yet complete.

It's quite disingenuous to suggest that since July, the subway has escalated by less than 10%, while the LRT would have more than doubled - when the design is much further advanced on the LRT than the subway!
 
nfitz said:
I didn't come up with the $5 billion number - that was the amount suggested by the person I was responding too. I simply offered what else could be built for that. (Though $4.6 billion escalated (year of spending) dollars was the city's July 2016 estimate for the originally-planned 3-stop Scarborough subway extension to Sheppard/McCowan - if you add the proposed 4th stop near Eglinton/Brimley, you'd be looking at at very close to $5 billion).

Scarborough-Malvern LRT at $4 billion?

In the July 2016 Council Meeting that authorized further study of this, the cost was estimated to be $1.6 to $1.7 billion in escalated (year of spending) dollars - http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-94622.pdf

Meanwhile, at the same time the 1-stop subway extension to Scarborough Centre was put at $3.2 escalated (year of spending) dollars. That's about double the cost of the Scarborough-Malvern LRT. - http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-94597.pdf

Additionally, the LRT has a full EA already completed, and is nearly shovel ready. The costs are much more accurate than the subway, for which the EA is not yet complete.

It's quite disingenuous to suggest that since July, the subway has escalated by less than 10%, while the LRT would have more than doubled - when the design is much further advanced on the LRT than the subway!
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I didn't mention the SMLRT?

SLRT - Scarborough LRT
SMLRT - Scarborough Malvern LRT

-This false $5 billion subway figure gets tossed around quite a bit without ever taking into account what the rise in cost for the SLRT would be at this $ value. I said the SLRT would hypothetically be $4billion if the subway is hypothetically $5Billion as stated in your post.

-The Eglinton East or SMLRT is under review for a few changes since the EA as they didn't previously drill down on the Guildwood GO connection. Also they need to review maintenance and storage, traffic impacts & road cross sections etc.. But I don't dispute the current costs estimates for this line but it is likely to rise a bit based on any changes. This is close to being ready but still a couple years away.

-As for the Sheppard LRT it's on life support at best. They postponed this line for the reason of place holding the capital while the subway design gets moving. The Province will likely keep postponements in place until the subway design is complete. Neither the Conservative, Liberals or local commuters support the LRT here. Technically it not officially dead, but unless you are an outsider with strong LRT dreams for this area it's pretty clear the direction the Governments have taken here.
 
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Nobody has "LRT dreams" -- those people that support LRT (irrrspective of which area of the city) listen to the evidence that shows ridership warrants this type of mass transit and nothing higher order than that.

Anything higher order than LRT in an area whose established ridership doesn't support that higher order, would be a massive waste limited and precious taxpayer's money (see--SSE one-stop subway).

On the other hand, people do have "Subway dreams", but we all know those people have major psychological issues.
 
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pstogios said:
Nobody has "LRT dreams" -- those people that support LRT (irrrspective of which area of the city) listen to the evidence that shows ridership warrants this type of mass transit and nothing higher order than that.

Anything higher order than LRT in an area whose established ridership doesn't support that higher order, would be a massive waste limited and precious taxpayer's money (see--SSE one-stop subway).

On the other hand, people do have "Subway dreams", but we all know those people have major psychological issues.
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Maybe im misinterpreting here so feel free to clarify I'm wrong as Id hate to think someone could really mean this? But from what I gather from your post here's why I understand you are saying?

Sheppard Subway supporters - Major psychological mental disordered people most of whom live within Scarborough's borders

Sheppard LRT supporters - Intelligent evidence based scholars, most of whom don't live within Scarborough's borders.


The LRT dream comment was not to insult its to point out the reality that the Sheppard LRT is not likely to be built although many here seem to be holding out hopes for it due to postponements and old EA's. The line is not heavily supported by many very intelligent residents many of whom would be impacted negatively by the extra transfer on a separate technology to the stub sticking out in North York. You don't agree, because from your stand point the current lack of funding is your main priority which is a separate complex topic in itself. I don't share this short term vision but would never feel the need to insult anyones intelligence who disagrees on this level. We all have our reasons and evidence for believing in what is the best solution for the long term future and there's a lot of differing benefits for each plan.
 
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