Do you think Toronto's high linguistic diversity will continue for a long time?

[wild goose chase]

The diversity of language is one aspect of diversity that we pride ourselves on. Though many Torontonians speak English as a second language, their children sometimes speak not only English fluently first, but continue carrying their parent's language, but usually assimilation means heritage languages are not carried past 3 generations (this seems a general trend in North America, with some exceptions like Mennonites who have a strong history of German language preservation). Even with multiculturalism implying you "don't have to" assimilate, most still do, and heritage languages are still spoken by "recent" immigrants. Ask many 3rd or 4th generation Canadians and they will answer "no" to knowing or speaking their ancestral language. Of course, it hasn't been that many generations (1960s or 70s) since multiculturalism and the pressure to drop heritage languages was lessened, so we will see if things change.

Do you see Toronto continuing to carry heritage languages by native born Canadians who can speak both English and the other language for a long time or do you think in a generation or two assimilation in language will rapidly take place and Toronto will be a racially diverse but less linguistically diverse city.

Or do you think alternatively, that because Toronto will remain a major immigration gateway, as many native-born Canadians will keep in touch and communicate with others of their ethnicity?

 

[Armour]

Why is diversity of language something to pride ourselves on (I don't see the benefit)? Too many people in this city either don't speak English (at all), or their English is so poor and unintelligible. I'm fine with people speaking their native tongue in their homes, but if you choose to live here, please have the consideration to learn English as proficiently as possible so that people can communicate with you without it feeling like one is trying to solve a Rubik's Cube. There's no excuse for people that have lived here for decades and still don't know English.

 

[James]

While it is politically correct to allow everyone to speak their mother tongue both at home and in public with no mandatory requirement to learn the national language, I don't think it is in one's best interest not to learn the language. The ability to speak proficiently in the language of majority empowers you and elevates your confidence both socially and in business.

 

[uto123]

For older people, I can see why they may not be able to speak our national languages even though they've been living here for some time but it boggles my mind when I come across people that essentially grew up here but still can't speak the local language properly.

 

[Armour]

Interacting with people in Toronto sometimes is like the Tower of Babel.

 

[doady]

Ontario should enact laws to restrict the use of foreign languages just like Quebec does. Also, only immigrants from English-speaking countries should be allowed into Ontario.

 

[King of Kensington]

For older people, I can see why they may not be able to speak our national languages even though they've been living here for some time but it boggles my mind when I come across people that essentially grew up here but still can't speak the local language properly.

Is this really a problem?

There is the problem of the deterioration of the English language among young people addicted to texting, but I don't see this as an "immigrant" problem.

Plz sv English b4 its 2 l8.

 

[doady]

People might have trouble speaking English for a variety of possible reasons: autism, speech impediment, retardation, shyness... I don't see the point getting upset and making lazy assumptions about them.

And you think it is easy for the average person to learn a new language? Speaking multiple languages fluently is not a common ability, even in Toronto. Show some understanding and patience. Otherwise, don't bother talking to them. Judging from these posts, I am sure they have no desire to talk with you either.

 

[King of Kensington]

According to the 2011 census, a whopping 5.3% of Torontonians can't converse in English and I'm sure very, very few people in that group grew up in the city and went to school here.

 

[wild goose chase]

Why is diversity of language something to pride ourselves on (I don't see the benefit)? Too many people in this city either don't speak English (at all), or their English is so poor and unintelligible. I'm fine with people speaking their native tongue in their homes, but if you choose to live here, please have the consideration to learn English as proficiently as possible so that people can communicate with you without it feeling like one is trying to solve a Rubik's Cube. There's no excuse for people that have lived here for decades and still don't know English.

I wasn't necessarily thinking of pride in coming here and not learning English, but pride in diversity of people who are not only English-speaking but also continue to carry their heritage language.

Usually however, it seems like most people who speak a heritage language tend to be first and second generation Canadians. Even though the first generation may not speak English well, their kids speak English like anyone else (I've not met any second-generation Canadians who are not fluent in English, because they have to be exposed to it in the school system unless they were homeschooled in a non-English language completely, but I never met such a case anyways).

It seems like third-generation citizens who continue knowing extra languages besides English are rare. Historically many languages brought by immigrants to North America like German, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian, Yiddish etc. had large presences in many cities and towns but declined as soon as immigration waves stopped and the immigrants' descendants assimilated. I was wondering whether or not this trend would continue for the newer immigrants' languages in Toronto like Mandarin, Punjabi, Arabic etc.?

 

[King of Kensington]

Yes it's unusual to have the third generation and beyond still speaking the language at home (or even at all), the exception being isolated religious communities, like some Mennonites and the Amish speaking a German dialect and Hasidic Jews speaking Yiddish.

In rural areas languages in block settlements often held out longer - for instance former Alberta premier Ed Stelmach, a third generation Canadian, spoke Ukrainian growing up in rural Alberta.

 

[wild goose chase]

Yes it's unusual to have the third generation and beyond still speaking the language at home (or even at all), the exception being isolated religious communities, like some Mennonites and the Amish speaking a German dialect and Hasidic Jews speaking Yiddish.

In rural areas languages in block settlements often held out longer - for instance former Alberta premier Ed Stelmach, a third generation Canadian, spoke Ukrainian growing up in rural Alberta.

So despite all the association between cultural and linguistic diversity and big cities, it's actually less likely for languages to be retained multi-generationally in cities, so cities basically just attract lots of new diversity in language but such a setting doesn't do much to actually retain it, compared to rural areas. I guess you can have areas in cities that preserve language for a long time (not sure if say the Yiddish spoken by Hasidic Jews in Brookyln are an example where language in a city lasts over three generations among a community? I can't think of a Canadian example like that, which is urban and not rural).

I have heard conflicting ideas about whether today's immigrants retain their language more than in the past. On the one hand, claims are made that today's immigrants can continue being in touch with overseas speakers of their tongue (eg. by internet, keeping in touch long distance, easier back and forth movement by plane), which might keep an incentive to retain the language as opposed to a time when travel was hard.

On the other hand, it's been said that people often forget how long it took some past immigrants to assimilate and lose their languages (eg. German Americans in the past often spoke German for three generations in the Midwest) and perceive today's immigrants as not assimilating language-wise when in fact they could be doing so just as fast or even faster but we are only looking at a snapshot in time when a large foreign language-cohort just happens to be around in the process of doing so. I have heard claims that today's immigrants might even be learning English more quickly than past waves since more people have standardized education/media and English-language culture (especially American media) is more universal now than say a century ago.

 

[the lemur]

Too many people in this city either don't speak English (at all)

How many people, approximately, don't speak English at all? Also, it's entirely too easy to hear someone (or most likely two people) speaking another language and assume they can't or won't speak English, that they're talking about you, etc.

 

[the lemur]

Ontario should enact laws to restrict the use of foreign languages just like Quebec does. Also, only immigrants from English-speaking countries should be allowed into Ontario.

Those laws are intended to prevent other languages from being used in the place of French. I don't think a similar situation exists here with regard to English.

Restricting immigration so it's from English-speaking countries only means a smaller pool of skilled immigrants and to be honest, people in most major English-speaking countries don't have much interest in coming to Canada. As it is, we receive a large number of newcomers who speak excellent, easily intelligible, English even allowing for the fact it is not their first language, and yet the reactions are often 'ZOMG I can't understand your accent (because it's not the same as mine)' or some kind of misguided attempt to 'correct' their grammar.

 

[King of Kensington]

The population of Wellesley Township (in Waterloo region) is 92% Canadian-born. And 4% of their population can't speak English at all, just 1 percentage point less than Toronto. 29% still speak German as their home language, even though their German and Swiss ancestors came to this continent in the 18th century! Talk about people refusing speaking to speak English in spite of having been in this country for generations.