Do you think Toronto's high linguistic diversity will continue for a long time?

[wild goose chase]

I can tell you that in some communities in western and southwestern Ontario, there are large numbers of Mennonites from Mexico for whom English is a third language after German and Spanish and they do seasonal work for farmers - they don't all need to speak English as long as a few of them do who can translate for the others.

I only recently learned that Mexican migrant workers were a major part of Ontario, or Canada's agricultural economy at all. I had thought that they were mainly in the US (in places like California) but had no idea they came up here to seek employment too.

 

[the lemur]

I only recently learned that Mexican migrant workers were a major part of Ontario, or Canada's agricultural economy at all. I had thought that they were mainly in the US (in places like California) but had no idea they came up here to seek employment too.

They're a big part of seasonal farm work in places like Leamington, on a very informal basis. Where the Mennonites are concerned, many years ago I would occasionally be asked to help them in setting up bank accounts. They seemed to have little difficulty in understanding standard German, their working arrangements were fairly casual (I would ask them about their sources of income and their reply would often be something like 'We work for Bob and also for Pete') and even though they're generally less averse to modern technology than their Amish brethren, they never seemed to want a bank card.

 

[prosperegal]

They're a big part of seasonal farm work in places like Leamington, on a very informal basis. Where the Mennonites are concerned, many years ago I would occasionally be asked to help them in setting up bank accounts. They seemed to have little difficulty in understanding standard German, their working arrangements were fairly casual (I would ask them about their sources of income and their reply would often be something like 'We work for Bob and also for Pete') and even though they're generally less averse to modern technology than their Amish brethren, they never seemed to want a bank card.

How do they deposit money then?

 

[the lemur]

How do they deposit money then?

In person, with ID. It's not so much about the technology - some people don't want the responsibility of a card, especially if their transactions are infrequent/seasonal.

 

[prosperegal]

In person, with ID. It's not so much about the technology - some people don't want the responsibility of a card, especially if their transactions are infrequent/seasonal.

I did not know you could still do that. I mostly bank digitally...

 

[GenerationW]

They're a big part of seasonal farm work in places like Leamington, on a very informal basis.

My parents worked in Leamington for a couple of summers when they came to Canada from Europe in the 50s.

 

[the lemur]

I did not know you could still do that. I mostly bank digitally...

I think tellers and/or managers still have some discretion in that area. There are some clients for whom it makes less sense to issue a card - ones who live overseas and come in every few years when a GIC matures and don't bank online.

 

[wild goose chase]

Now, actually I've come to the conclusion that the dominance of Toronto's immigrant languages has been quite overstated, by North American standards. This is from realizing that though about a third of GTA residents speak a non-official language at home (as of the last stats, since the latest census won't have this data until later in the year), many US cities actually rank higher in terms of non-English speakers.

Half of New Yorkers and Angelenos speak a non-English language at home, according to the American Community Survey. Much of California's cities are in the 40-50% range in terms of people who speak an immigrant language at home. 30% of Chicagoans do, which is closer to Toronto's figure. Yet all these places have a lower foreign born percentage than Toronto does.
Miami, which is half foreign born and the only US city with a higher immigrant proportion than Toronto, has nearly three quarters of its citizens speaking a non-English language at home (I'd imagine it's mostly Spanish).

This is surprising; in these big immigrant-rich US cities, the share of those speaking an immigrant language at home is higher than the share of immigrants.
But in Toronto, the share of those speaking an immigrant language is actually lower than the share of immigrants..

Perhaps more of Toronto's immigrants come already knowing and regularly speaking with family in English (eg. Caribbean immigrants). Or alternatively perhaps, Toronto, contrary to popular belief, is actually assimilating its immigrants to speaking English more than stateside, or big urban US cities are actually hanging on to their immigrant languages more. But that's not what the classic narrative we all hear about the melting pot and mosaic is. Perhaps one major difference is that stateside, immigrant language retention is more driven by one major language, Spanish, while for Canada, in a city like Toronto, you don't have one immigrant language in particular dominating as much -- maybe a larger number of diverse immigrant languages with smaller shares of speakers are lost more easily than say one immigrant language like Spanish with a larger share of a given city's speakers (but maybe not, as NYC has retained linguistic diversity for so long).

Granted, I have no idea how comparable the US and Canadian data is -- perhaps the amount of speaking that one does to consider answering the survey question might be different. But it goes to show that Toronto isn't as different or exceptional as we often make it out to be.

 

[prosperegal]

Now, actually I've come to the conclusion that the dominance of Toronto's immigrant languages has been quite overstated, by North American standards. This is from realizing that though about a third of GTA residents speak a non-official language at home (as of the last stats, since the latest census won't have this data until later in the year), many US cities actually rank higher in terms of non-English speakers.

Half of New Yorkers and Angelenos speak a non-English language at home, according to the American Community Survey. Much of California's cities are in the 40-50% range in terms of people who speak an immigrant language at home. 30% of Chicagoans do, which is closer to Toronto's figure. Yet all these places have a lower foreign born percentage than Toronto does.
Miami, which is half foreign born and the only US city with a higher immigrant proportion than Toronto, has nearly three quarters of its citizens speaking a non-English language at home (I'd imagine it's mostly Spanish).

This is surprising; in these big immigrant-rich US cities, the share of those speaking an immigrant language at home is higher than the share of immigrants.
But in Toronto, the share of those speaking an immigrant language is actually lower than the share of immigrants..

Perhaps more of Toronto's immigrants come already knowing and regularly speaking with family in English (eg. Caribbean immigrants). Or alternatively perhaps, Toronto, contrary to popular belief, is actually assimilating its immigrants to speaking English more than stateside, or big urban US cities are actually hanging on to their immigrant languages more. But that's not what the classic narrative we all hear about the melting pot and mosaic is. Perhaps one major difference is that stateside, immigrant language retention is more driven by one major language, Spanish, while for Canada, in a city like Toronto, you don't have one immigrant language in particular dominating as much -- maybe a larger number of diverse immigrant languages with smaller shares of speakers are lost more easily than say one immigrant language like Spanish with a larger share of a given city's speakers (but maybe not, as NYC has retained linguistic diversity for so long).

Granted, I have no idea how comparable the US and Canadian data is -- perhaps the amount of speaking that one does to consider answering the survey question might be different. But it goes to show that Toronto isn't as different or exceptional as we often make it out to be.

Or perhaps immigrants to Toronto tend to be better-off financially and/or better educated - even if they end up taking lower-level jobs (thanks to the lack of "Canadian experience"). Children of immigrants typically "think" in English and use English as their default language despite it not being their first language. This is why I have issues with the term "mother tongue"/defining what it is for people like me (as you can see from a post I wrote in 2015).

 

[jje1000]

The key though to US cities is that the non-official language is mostly Spanish.

Unless you're looking to forge closer ties to the Hispanosphere, I think that linguistic diversity is far more important than the percentage of non-English speakers at home.

Makes for a far healthier demographic situation as well, as you will avoid the critical mass issues that prevent societal cohesion and assimilation (see US with its Hispanics, Europe with its Muslims).

 

[Admiral Beez]

Do you see Toronto continuing to carry heritage languages by native born Canadians who can speak both English and the other language for a long time or do you think in a generation or two assimilation in language will rapidly take place and Toronto will be a racially diverse but less linguistically diverse city.

2-3 generations and it's gone. My wife is of Ukrainian heritage, grandparents were from Ukraine, both parents were raised in the language, my wife was forced to go to Ukrainian school on Saturday until age 13, when she quit it. Doesn't speak a lick of Ukrainian now, is married to an immigrant from the UK (me) and our kids only speak English, plus whatever French they pick up at school. Two of my best friends from highschool, both of Chinese parents, can speak a little of the lingo, can't read any of it.

That's why I don't get worked up about other cultures bringing their unusual headgear and sometimes misogynistic cultural rules, etc, to Canada. Give it two generations of cross cultural marriages, the pursuit of middle class lives, careers, etc. and we all end up sounding and looking the same.

 

[Johnny Au]

The key though to US cities is that the non-official language is mostly Spanish.

Unless you're looking to forge closer ties to the Hispanosphere, I think that linguistic diversity is far more important than the percentage of non-English speakers at home.

Makes for a far healthier demographic situation as well, as you will avoid the critical mass issues that prevent societal cohesion and assimilation (see US with its Hispanics, Europe with its Muslims).

Interestingly enough, the United States does not have an official language. English is its "national" language.

 

[jje1000]

That's why I don't get worked up about other cultures bringing their unusual headgear and sometimes misogynistic cultural rules, etc, to Canada. Give it two generations of cross cultural marriages, the pursuit of middle class lives, careers, etc. and we all end up sounding and looking the same.

Again, I think "critical mass" is the issue- isolated immigrants exposed to a dominant culture will be heavily pressured to assimilate quickly (have to fit in to survive), but when you have enough people speaking a certain language and participating in a certain culture, this assimilation/intergration will be far slower.

Culture/demographics, economics and government policy also play a big part in this, but exposure and integration to the main culture is what keeps situations like the US-Mexico borderlands and European periphery slums from occurring. When either the dominant or secondary cultures reject one or the other, then you have a problem.

 

[prosperegal]

Again, I think "critical mass" is the issue- isolated immigrants exposed to a dominant culture will be heavily pressured to assimilate quickly (have to fit in to survive), but when you have enough people speaking a certain language and participating in a certain culture, this assimilation/intergration will be far slower.

Culture/demographics, economics and government policy also play a big part in this, but exposure and integration to the main culture is what keeps situations like the US-Mexico borderlands and European periphery slums from occurring. When either the dominant or secondary cultures reject one or the other, then you have a problem.

It also depends on one's ambition to move up. There was already a pretty decent sized Cantonese-speaking population when my parents arrived in the 70s. My mom and dad could have worked predominantly within the community and just speak "passable" English. But this wasn't the case for them and in order to truly fit in, my parents also had to understand North American pop culture. They did so by watching TV. You have to be able to chitchat in the break room, right? You can't just go into the office, work your job, go home and expect to move up the ladder quickly.

 

[wild goose chase]

The key though to US cities is that the non-official language is mostly Spanish.

I remember when I was a kid, whenever I'd see media from the states, such as Sesame Street teaching Spanish words, I kind of assumed that the English and Spanish languages were to the US what English and French were to Canada. The fact that I'd see packaging in Spanish from American products and notice its prevalence when traveling south of the border added to this perception. I'd hear about Americans learning Spanish in high school and assume it was like learning French in Ontario.

Only later when I got older did I get a more nuanced understanding and realize that the situations weren't so analogous. Even setting aside the fact that the US doesn't formally set an official language (it's just assumed to be, and de facto English), and even though Spanish, like French, had a centuries-long colonial history before being replaced by English on parts of US soil, by far Spanish is still seen as predominantly an "immigrant" language and is given no special status any more than Italian or Hindi is, nowhere near the "two founding peoples" national narrative we Canadians have.