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Yonge Street, North York Streetscape Improvements

sunnyraytoronto said:
Not really an engineering problem. The real question, is weather you want to build the proper and safest infrastructure for the local residents or if you want to satisfy the vocal special interest groups from outside the area who'll rarely visit (ie the "CityBuilders" mainly after Minimum-Grid).
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You devalue your multitude of posts with this statement.

I live right on Yonge between Sheppard and Finch and I support Filion's plan.

I'm not a special interest group. I'm a resident of this area who wants change.
 
Both "Transform Yonge" and "Enhance Yonge" with "Transform Beecroft" gives you change,.... the later more so!

Councillor Filion knows his constituents want public realm wider sidewalk improvements on Yonge Street but thinks this is a classic (Bike & Pedestrian) VS Car issue. He can't understand the CityStaff 3.0m VS 4.5m CentreMedian trick making this a CycleTrack VS (Pedestrian & Car) issue (Councillor Shiner does!),.... so Councillor Filion "Transform Yonge" is still arguing to change Yonge from 6-lanes to 4-lanes,... but that's not really any of the current options!

Since a CycleTrack (bike-lane) is still a lane; Transform Yonge north of Sheppard where 6 traffic lanes reduce to 4 but add 2 CycleTracks so lane counts remain the same; but at Sheppard & south Transform Yonge keeps 6 traffic lanes and add 2 CycleTracks on sidewalk, here lane count increased by 2!

Say for every one cyclist on Yonge currently, there's 10 along west-side of Beecroft and 5 along east-side of Doris where it's long and continuous with 6-10 times less Cyclist-Vehicle conflict points. Placing CycleTracks on Yonge won't reduce the numerous cyclist-vehicle conflict points there, so we'll end up with empty CycleTracks on Yonge (baby stroller lane or extra huge green painted buffer) but we won't get cycling infrastructure where cyclists actually cycle.

The lost parking lane won't be good for businesses along Yonge.

Scan through the list of Communication (Committee / City Hall) and organizations on REimaginingYonge and you'll notice most are from outside the area.
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2018.PW27.1
 
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sunnyraytoronto said:
Not exactly,....

Originally, all the east-west roads from the single residential house neighbourhoods went directly to and intersected with Yonge St.
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I was aware of all this though I thank you for info and it is a good primer for people who don't know.
but it doesn't really refute my basic point: the ring road/buffer was designed for cars to travel north/south directly parallel to Yonge.


Not really an engineering problem. The real question, is weather you want to build the proper and safest infrastructure for the local residents or if you want to satisfy the vocal special interest groups from outside the area who'll rarely visit (ie the "CityBuilders" mainly after Minimum-Grid).
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Safe is only one factor in a design. Intentionally detouring cyclists, adding to their trip and shunting them away from destinations and origins is a perverse plan.

Sincere question not meant to offend - do you work in Shiner's office or something? There is an argument to make for the alternatives, and you are making it well. I still don't buy it.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
I was aware of all this though I thank you for info and it is a good primer for people who don't know.
but it doesn't really refute my basic point: the ring road/buffer was designed for cars to travel north/south directly parallel to Yonge.
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Beecroft Rd & Doris Ave are only about 2km long so it's not practical as a By-Pass north-south route for cars on Yonge St; it serves the local condos.

TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Sincere question not meant to offend - do you work in Shiner's office or something? There is an argument to make for the alternatives, and you are making it well. I still don't buy it.
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I'm not offended,.... In my opinion Councillor Shiner is currently doing a better job for my Ward23 than my Councillor Filion! That said, I'm very sure Councillor Shiner will get his modified 6-lane Enhance Yonge Centre Median down to existing 3.0m thus maximizing pedestrian sidewalk width gain throughout. Getting Transform Beecroft conversion from Uni-Directional CycleTracks to fully protective Bi-Directional CycleTracks today at City Council is a tough one to call since Councillor Shiner always holds his cards close to his chest and wait until the last minute to announce,...

BTW, Councillor Filion's office has about 5-6 staff (one is regular cyclist). Councillor Shiner's office has 2 staff member but both are bike guys so they'll grasp these issues better.
 
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I grew up in Shiner's ward and have a different opinion (ie dead weight who should have been turfed after standing by Ford since he wasn't turfed already). But he could have decent staff for all I know. I don't think removing street parking will hurt business on Yonge (tonnes of underground there) and, at the risk of repeating myself, think the issue is less about cars and bikes and parking and traffic than configuring the proper streetscape on a street that has (per how the city planned things on purpose!) fundamentally changed its character in a generation. Bikes and pedestrians are more indicative of that than cars parked along Yonge while pedestrians jaywalk everywhere because of the huge blocks and inaccessible median. But I do sincerely acknowledge your reasons for seeing another way.
 
lead82 said:
Given Tory's hold on votes, I think the likely and predictable outcome will be Enhance Yonge and Beecroft will get the lanes. I just hope they don't compromise and actually put in proper physically separated lanes and not just sharrows.
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The sharrows are only proposed for a couple of blocks (SB from Hendon to Finch and NB from Horsham to Hounslow) where the city would need to buy out private property. It's not ideal, but it's not gutting the bike lanes entirely.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
I don't think removing street parking will hurt business on Yonge (tonnes of underground there)
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This really depends on what a business does. If your business is a takeout counter, removing street parking will take away a lot of customers - nobody wants to spend 10 minutes driving in and out of a garage and walking a block or two for that. The bike lanes on Yonge would be an improvement, but they would hurt some people and business just like anything else that the city does.
 
amnesiajune said:
This really depends on what a business does. If your business is a takeout counter, removing street parking will take away a lot of customers - nobody wants to spend 10 minutes driving in and out of a garage and walking a block or two for that. The bike lanes on Yonge would be an improvement, but they would hurt some people and business just like anything else that the city does.
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How many takeout counters are along there? It's mostly condo retail at grade in the south end and indie plazas in the north, which are gradually becoming condos.

What about the food trucks at Mel Lastman Square and the Starbucks and Dairy Queen there? You think they get more business from cars parked on Yonge or people walking/biking by? What percentage of customers at the Shoppers by Finch drive?

Everything is a tradeoff, obviously. But if you look at the street in 88, 98, 08 and 2018 it's pretty obvious what the trends are, so you can enable them or hinder them.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
How many takeout counters are along there?
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Tons. Lots of the condos have tiny retail spaces that got filled by restaurants that mainly do takeout/deliver with just a couple of tables.

TJ O'Pootertoot said:
What about the food trucks at Mel Lastman Square and the Starbucks and Dairy Queen there?
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The food trucks are gone if bike lanes are put in. They won't have anywhere to stop on Yonge Street.

TJ O'Pootertoot said:
But if you look at the street in 88, 98, 08 and 2018 it's pretty obvious what the trends are, so you can enable them or hinder them.
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I don't disagree with this. I'm just not under the delusion that this is gonna be great for everybody, like some people seem to argue.
 
Joe Cressy ended up passing a strategic motion that defers this until (in all likelihood) after the election. They've asked the TTC to report back to council about the impacts on transit service, with no deadline. It was looking like a close vote since a couple of suburban councillors (Perruzza and Shan) said they'd vote in favour of the "Transform" option. I'm guessing they think they can get three or four more votes for Transform after the election (two new councillors in the core, plus a possible defeat of vulnerable councillors who oppose it, like Lucy Troisi and Carmichael-Greb).
 
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