Worthiness of "The Box"

[Ramako]

What's so completely different about a box with bits stuck on it so it doesn't look like a box?

To me, there isn't much of a difference. For some, they're clearly worlds apart.

 

[Urban Shocker]

To me, there isn't much of a difference. For some, they're clearly worlds apart.

Indeed - listening to the false "confining and stunting" dichotomy you'd think HP had reinvented the wheel here - that slapping a few curves on a box is somehow breaking out of one.

 

[Ramako]

Indeed - listening to the false "confining and stunting" dichotomy you'd think HP had reinvented the wheel here - that slapping a few curves on a box is somehow breaking out of one.

And indeed, a Big Mac and foie gras are both nothing but very delicious fat. The only real difference is the pretentiousness of their respective consumers.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Their pocketbooks, more likely. Though the pretense involved in pretending a box isn't a box and gussying it up to look like something "better" is considerable.

 

[Ramako]

Their pocketbooks, more likely. Though the pretense involved in pretending a box isn't a box and gussying it up to look like something "better" is considerable.

I find the heavier someone's pocketbook, the more pretentious they tend to be. That aside, it's equally pretentious to pretend that one box is so much superior to another simply because it isn't "gussied up." Fat is fat and a box is a box.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Not that I have any stake this particular debate - but to equate all boxes (and fat) as equal in quality and execution is a fallacy. No one in the right mind would equate Big Mac to Angus Beef to Kobe Beef, pretentiousnes or otherwise.

This debate is getting nowhere - and becoming distracting.

AoD

 

[Ramako]

Not that I have any stake this particular debate - but to equate all boxes (and fat) as equal in quality and execution is a fallacy. No one in the right mind would equate Big Mac to Angus Beef to Kobe Beef, pretentiousnes or otherwise.

This debate is getting nowhere - and becoming distracting.

AoD

I simply said a box is a box, not that they're all equal. Some boxes are better than others and by that same token, some prefer Angus beef over Kobe beef, or vice-versa. I wouldn't look down on someone for preferring either, because it's a matter of personal preference. My point is that it is pretentious to claim that one box is somehow objectively superior to another when the differences between them are ultimately subtle and nuanced.

Like I said from the beginning "there's nothing wrong with occasionally preferring a Big Mac over foie gras, and it would be just as pretentious or disingenuous as the foam gargoyles on One Park Tower to pretend otherwise." In other words, some may prefer this HP design to a given aA design, but I find it incredibly pretentious to label them "lemmings" because of it.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I happen to like this "dressed up" box - so no I don't subscribe to the lemmings label - that said, I do believe that one can objectively distinguish qualities of design in most cases. Foam gargoyles slapped on a tower as a second thought is one thing; high quality cast gargoyles that is integrated into building design from day one is another.

Anyways, I think this is an ultimately fruitless debate.

AoD

 

[Traynor]

We all live in glorified boxes. There is no other practical solution.It is all just a variation on a theme.

I tried living in a spheroid apartment but all my furniture kept sliding down the walls to the center depression in the floor. It sure made it easy finding my keys though.

 

[Tewder]

I happen to like this "dressed up" box - so no I don't subscribe to the lemmings label - that said, I do believe that one can objectively distinguish qualities of design in most cases. Foam gargoyles slapped on a tower as a second thought is one thing; high quality cast gargoyles that is integrated into building design from day one is another.

Anyways, I think this is an ultimately fruitless debate.

AoD

Agreed. To disparage the building for not being a box, all the while dismissing it for merely being a 'fancy' one seems more than a little pointless, not to mention pedantic. Boxes are nice, and aA ones are very nice indeed, but they are not the final word on architecture and design in Toronto, obviously.

 

[Urban Shocker]

For all your attempts to insert aA into the equation, Tewder, criticism of HP's building has been for what it is, not for what it isn't.

 

[interchange42]

What's so completely different about a box with bits stuck on it so it doesn't look like a box?

Okay... time to start weighing in.

Shocker: 'bits stuck on'? That dismissal is a bit much: it suggests an assortment of randomly jutting balconies (which if done right can look quite good actually) as opposed to what we are getting here. One Bloor is sculpted a little more floridly than you usually approve of, but The Clewes has been playing with curves and wonky angles as of late too, and we haven't heard too much carping about that from you.

I was at the media launch today; a detailed description of what I heard and saw is coming.

42

 

[SP!RE]

Urban Shocker's pretentious schtick is definitely getting old. He likes to hear what he likes to hear.

As for the updates you have coming-- thank you Interchange. Look forward to hearing your account of everything.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Shocker: 'bits stuck on'? That dismissal is a bit much: it suggests an assortment of randomly jutting balconies (which if done right can look quite good actually) as opposed to what we are getting here. One Bloor is sculpted a little more floridly than you usually approve of, but The Clewes has been playing with curves and wonky angles as of late too, and we haven't heard too much carping about that from you.42

Oh I love the look of Waalpanorama and have posted to that effect on this forum several times - the shape of the tower seems to express a spirit embedded within it, there's an idea there. Ramako made the point that "just because one appreciates a certain brand of neo-modernist grey boxes, as I do, it doesn't mean you can't also appreciate something completely different" and I'm in full agreement with him - but it's not unreasonable to call him on that by pointing out that there's nothing completely different about this building at all. I'm not the only one who has observed that it comes across essentially as a box with bits stuck on. Comparisons have also been made, on this thread, to another box that tries not to look like one - Aqua. If people keep bringing aA into discussions of this building, and if the comparison is to Waalpanorama, I think the comparison is instructive.

 

[E.B.]

1BE is nicely balanced with four seasons. It has texture,height and the podium is something different for the city. The podium's layered back and cover's a lot of ground. It's going to have a huge presence.

Let's remember, most people aren't architects, we just admire a building for what it makes us feel.

By the way, Toronto has some awful boxes. Like FCP and the TD buildings, to name a few. But they still add substance to the CBD. Which I like.