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With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

What I've found is that a lot of people are far less interested in learning about other cultures than we'd like to believe.

Why does this keep being repeated? What is it about something like "Korean Students Association" that sounds as if it's a place to learn about other cultures, or seems in any way welcome to the idea that anyone can join? It is an organization with a very, very clear intent. Korean student association. Association of Korean Students. Korean students associate here. Again, the only true example of a cultural interest group that I can see from the Waterloo list is the Konnichiwa Japan club. Of course "technically anyone can join", otherwise it wouldn't be a club that was allowed. That doesn't change the reality of the situation, though.

I think the real question is why we have to limit the ways in which we interact with each other?

Great question. For example, instead of going to a hobby club where we can meet lots of people with a similar hobby, why do people limit their interactions by creating a secondary group targeting only their own ethnicity? Like, say, a Chinese debating society?
 
Why does this keep being repeated? What is it about something like "Korean Students Association" that sounds as if it's a place to learn about other cultures, or seems in any way welcome to the idea that anyone can join? It is an organization with a very, very clear intent. Korean student association. Association of Korean Students. Korean students associate here. Again, the only true example of a cultural interest group that I can see from the Waterloo list is the Konnichiwa Japan club. Of course "technically anyone can join", otherwise it wouldn't be a club that was allowed. That doesn't change the reality of the situation, though.

How many clubs have you actually been involved with?

I think you're getting caught up in semantics. What do you expect them to call it? The "Korean Club For All Students. All STUDENTS WELCOME"?

Read the mandate of the club...most that are "(Ethnic Group) Students Association" are actually quite open. Otherwise, petition to have them shut down.

How many of these clubs did you join or try to join?


Great question. For example, instead of going to a hobby club where we can meet lots of people with a similar hobby, why do people limit their interactions by creating a secondary group targeting only their own ethnicity? Like, say, a Chinese debating society?

That makes no sense. It's like assuming people who join a cultural club join that club and nothing else. Why not have a choice? You're the one suggesting limitations.

For me these clubs really enriched campus life. It would've been a lot more boring without them.
 
How many clubs have you actually been involved with?

Many.

I think you're getting caught up in semantics. What do you expect them to call it? The "Korean Club For All Students. All STUDENTS WELCOME"?

Read the mandate of the club...most that are "(Ethnic Group) Students Association" are actually quite open. Otherwise, petition to have them shut down.

And you're getting caught up in technicality. Of course they say on their website that anyone is welcome. They're required to put that disclaimer so they won't be targeted. That doesn't change the nature of these groups, though.

That makes no sense. It's like assuming people who join a cultural club join that club and nothing else. Why not have a choice? You're the one suggesting limitations.

Read afransen's post above.

I wish you'd stop calling them cultural clubs. These are organizations for people of one ethnicity to be in a large group of people with the same ethnicity. In the case of the Chinese debating club, it's narrowing down your hobby to contain only your ethnic group. Afransen put it better:

They are pretty much exclusively about insulating oneself with the university community as a whole by forming a social network with those of a similar ethnic/religious/racial background as oneself.
 
the truth it is impossible to get through university without having some sort of a friendship with someone with another culture unless you are a loner.

I have 5-10 Indian friends and then you get to know a few Chinese friends, black friends and white friends.

These are organizations for people of one ethnicity to be in a large group of people with the same ethnicity


Sometimes I like to be around and talk to my own people, whats your problem?

You don't always see white people going around with one black, one Chinese, one Indian guy around. Why don't you accuse them of being isolated.


Even if these clubs did not exist, these people will still be meting and talking together anyways.
 
You don't always see white people going around with one black, one Chinese, one Indian guy around. Why don't you accuse them of being isolated.

Then again, you also don't see a "White Students Club" or "White Debate Society". Because those would be discriminatory and shut down immediately, even if they put a disclaimer on their web page saying "Hey, anyone is welcome!". And yet for some reason these other ones are allowed to exist.
 
You don't always see white people going around with one black, one Chinese, one Indian guy around. Why don't you accuse them of being isolated

I do. White people can be just as isolated as anybody else. I don't know whether you would consider them "white", but numerous European nationalities can be very isolationist as well. Portuguese, Jews, Italians and so forth can be very isolated from even the rest of society. My experience is growing up WASP, and from personal experience, I admit we do cluster.

Clustering is, to some degree, unavoidable. There are some pretty natural human urges to group with people who look and speak like you that will always exist no matter multiculturalism. I have no problem with that. There is a line in between that and what you can see in a lot of places. A few months ago the Globe ran a story from the 2k6 Census about ESL. In some cases, 3rd generation Canadians are totally illiterate in English. This means multiple generations of Canadians have avoided significant interaction outside their community. I don't really expect a 50y old grandmother who comes to Canada to be fully fluent in English but for her grandchildren who were born in Canada to be illiterate is a serious issue.

There are people who manage to go through university without seriously venturing outside of their own ethnicity. Not to point fingers, but there are tons of groups of Koreans who collaborate on everything and avoid talking to outside groups. White people do it to, though more sneakily. Dalhousie has pretty much made a market on luring white people from Toronto there with a sort of implicit promise that other white people will be there.
 
Then again, you also don't see a "White Students Club" or "White Debate Society". Because those would be discriminatory and shut down immediately, even if they put a disclaimer on their web page saying "Hey, anyone is welcome!". And yet for some reason these other ones are allowed to exist.

That's because these aren't racist supremacist groups. They're cultural groups. There are also European based cutural groups, like the Polish Students Association, Greek Students Association, etc. and no one accuses them of being racist.
 
I do. White people can be just as isolated as anybody else. I don't know whether you would consider them "white", but numerous European nationalities can be very isolationist as well. Portuguese, Jews, Italians and so forth can be very isolated from even the rest of society. My experience is growing up WASP, and from personal experience, I admit we do cluster.

Clustering is, to some degree, unavoidable. There are some pretty natural human urges to group with people who look and speak like you that will always exist no matter multiculturalism. I have no problem with that. There is a line in between that and what you can see in a lot of places. A few months ago the Globe ran a story from the 2k6 Census about ESL. In some cases, 3rd generation Canadians are totally illiterate in English. This means multiple generations of Canadians have avoided significant interaction outside their community. I don't really expect a 50y old grandmother who comes to Canada to be fully fluent in English but for her grandchildren who were born in Canada to be illiterate is a serious issue.

There are people who manage to go through university without seriously venturing outside of their own ethnicity. Not to point fingers, but there are tons of groups of Koreans who collaborate on everything and avoid talking to outside groups. White people do it to, though more sneakily. Dalhousie has pretty much made a market on luring white people from Toronto there with a sort of implicit promise that other white people will be there.


I have never met a 3rd generation Canadian completely illiterate in English. How would they survive in this country?
 

Cultural groups? I find that hard to believe.


And you're getting caught up in technicality. Of course they say on their website that anyone is welcome. They're required to put that disclaimer so they won't be targeted. That doesn't change the nature of these groups, though.

That's like saying ethnic restaurants just pander to specific cultural groups even though they're technically open to everyone.

It's pretty ridiculous for people to pass up the opportunity to join these groups and then complain they just cater to a certain group exclusively.



Read afransen's post above.

I wish you'd stop calling them cultural clubs. These are organizations for people of one ethnicity to be in a large group of people with the same ethnicity. In the case of the Chinese debating club, it's narrowing down your hobby to contain only your ethnic group. Afransen put it better:

I wish you'd open up your mind. I actually find it bizarre anyone could be against cultural groups. They exist everywhere, not just in University. In university they're arguably more open than they are anywhere else.

I actually helped running a few of these clubs and while their will obviously be a lot of people from the same cultural group everyone is free to partake in them. If people want to deny themselves that because they feel the clubs only cater to certain people that's their problem.

Aside from all of this there is nothing wrong with socializing from people of a similar background. Your making the fallacious assumption that if one joins one of these groups, they don't join any others or participate in any other way in campus life. What if you want to celebrate Diwali with some people on campus? Do you think the Chess Club will be open to that?

These clubs not only fill a need they make campus life better for everyone. University is about expanding your horizons and that's exactly what these clubs give people an opportunity to do. If people are still too close minded to want to take advantage of them, it's their loss.
 
I have never met a 3rd generation Canadian completely illiterate in English. How would they survive in this country?

Exactly. You never would meet them because they never leave their respective communities.
 
Exactly. You never would meet them because they never leave their respective communities.

Such people cannot survive in Canadian society. They are being supported by someone...someone who must know English and interact with everyone else.

I would hardly call them common either.
 
Such people cannot survive in Canadian society. They are being supported by someone...someone who must know English and interact with everyone else.

I would hardly call them common either.

Well, the people referenced in the Globe article were children, 7-8, who were being supported by their parents. The parents were functionally illiterate as well. They decided to have the children attend private school, to keep up the language, and just avoid interacting beyond their community.

I didn't say it was common though, and if i implied that it's not what I meant. The majority of immigrants are not like that. I didn't mean to imply they were, just that increasingly more and more immigrants are falling through society's cracks and becoming isolated. It is a serious worry because, as you pointed out, these people can't interact with a broader society for education and work rendering them dependent on family and low paying service sector jobs.
 
Okay, I found the article and it turns out I got a few things wrong (surprise!). It still illustrates my point though about a growing number of immigrants isolating themselves (or being isolated) from mainstream society.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080304.wcensuslanguage0304/BNStory/census2006/home

CAMILLE BAINS

Canadian Press

March 4, 2008 at 9:04 AM EDT

VANCOUVER — Bimal Kular is busy ironing crisp, white napkins while eight other women scurry around preparing tantalizing sauces, homemade cheese and a sizzling oil, onion and cumin mixture before hungry diners arrive at one of Vancouver's most renowned restaurants.

Ms. Kular, 57, has felt right at home since she landed her laundry job six years ago through her sister-in-law, who's the kitchen supervisor.

Everyone around Ms. Kular speaks Punjabi, and that was the essential part of her short job hunt in Canada, where she became a citizen last year.

Even now, seven years after arriving at her adopted homeland from India, Ms. Kular doesn't speak English.

“I really wanted to learn English but once I got here I just became so busy,†Ms. Kular said in Punjabi.

Punjabi is also the language Ms. Kular is surrounded by in her social circle and at home, where she lives with her husband, two sons, their wives and a total of four grandchildren.

The latest census figures released Tuesday by Statistics Canada show a large number of Canada's new immigrants are working in a native tongue which is neither of the country's official languages.

The large rise in immigration over the past five years of people whose mother tongue is neither French nor English did not necessarily mean that more of them were using non-official languages in the workplace.

But in B.C. and Ontario, the provinces where most immigrants land, a large number reported using a language other than English or French at work. The proportion held steady at 30 per cent in B.C. over a five-year period and dipped only slightly to 20 per cent from 21 per cent in Ontario.

Ms. Kular says a major benefit of her three-days-a-week job is that it gives her time to look after her grandkids — ages eight, six, five and 18 months — and speak Punjabi with them so they learn the language.

On a Sunday afternoon, the three boys have cranked up the volume on the 24-hour cartoon channel to an ear-splitting level.

They speak some English, but it's clear that Punjabi rules in this home.

Ms. Kular's daughter-in-law, Sarbjit Kular, 27, said it's important that the kids know Punjabi because the language is integral to their culture.

Eight-year-old Simran Kular, who was born in Canada, takes English-As-A-Second Language classes in Grade 2.

His grandmother said she's glad the classes are offered to children who are being raised to speak their mother tongue at home.

But Ms. Kular, who's dependent on her family's English skills when Punjabi won't suffice, realizes the limitations of her Punjabi-only world.

“When I take the kids to school or pick them up it's hard,†she said. “If I have to talk to the teachers I just stay silent. And when someone from my son's work calls I just say, ‘Not home.â€'

Hi, bye, good morning, good night, OK and thanks are some of the other words Ms. Kular knows, but it's clear that despite her insistence she understands English, she really doesn't.

“I'd like to learn English so I can talk to my neighbours,†she said in a city where even Mayor Sam Sullivan, who is of European ancestry, is taking Punjabi lessons and gives speeches in the language at local Sikh temples. The Canadian-born Sullivan also speaks Cantonese.

Balwant Sanghera, who heads the Punjabi Language Education Association, said that while his group promotes Punjabi instruction in schools, colleges and universities, he doesn't think people should get stuck in their “ethnic enclaves.â€

“We need to get out of those enclaves and reach out to the broader community,†he said.

“We should all try to learn at least one of the two official languages of Canada, either English and French. Then, I think we should learn our own language. The more languages we know the better.â€

Mr. Sanghera said the onus to learn English falls first on the individual, then the family, followed by the government, which needs to provide more community-based language centres.

Liza Yuen of Toronto said her lack of English skills 30 years after she arrived from Hong Kong is hardly a hindrance because she mostly deals only with people who speak Cantonese.

Whether she's grocery shopping, visiting the doctor or doing her banking, the Chinese community in Toronto is more than large enough to accommodate Ms. Yuen in her mother tongue.

“I don't have any problems using Cantonese as a daily language,†she said through an interpreter.

Ms. Yuen said she has adapted to the Canadian way of life and that her deficiency in one of the country's two official languages is of little consequence.

“I am not less of a Canadian, because I am a Canadian citizen, but I will always remember my Chinese roots.â€

Ms. Yuen's children would prefer she speaks English to avoid communication problems but she uses Cantonese so they will learn the language.

When she can't speak Cantonese and the little English she does speak fails her, gestures usually help get the point across, said Ms. Yuen, a retired insurance saleswoman.

Don DeVoretz, an economist who specializes in citizenship issues at Burnaby, B.C.-based Simon Fraser University, said people like Ms. Kular and Ms. Yuen don't need to know any English to become Canadian citizens.

He said that instead of a written exam, judges allow would-be citizens to answer questions about Canada orally with the help of an interpreter if they feel language is a barrier.

“Nobody wants to go back to the situation in the United States in the 1950s and 60s, where in order to vote you had to prove that you were literate.â€

Mr. DeVoretz said 75 per cent of immigrants become citizens after five years and that 95 per cent apply for citizenship within 15 years of coming to Canada.

But he said people who don't speak English or French pay a hefty economic price.

“On average, people who don't speak English and are in the labour force earn considerably less money so it's a built-in penalty they're paying.â€

Mr. DeVoretz said requiring immigrants to know one of Canada's official languages was tried in 1999 when a legislative committee that travelled the country made 141 recommendations to revise the Immigration Act.

Only one of those recommendations failed to be widely accepted: that immigrants speak either English or French.

Chinese speakers were most incensed, saying they have a tough time learning English and that the requirement would make it difficult for them to enter Canada, Mr. DeVoretz said.

“There's nothing more volatile in this country than language. I'm not talking about English and French, I mean other people's language.â€

Once people enter Canada without English or French, Mr. DeVoretz said, most don't have time to learn either language in any formal setting despite the social and economic price they pay.

“Over the last few years I've interviewed about 900 people in Vancouver who are Chinese, because that's where all the studies are. I've said ‘What's your biggest problem in Canada, in Vancouver, (for) integrating?' And they say, ‘Language, language, language.' â€

He said that while people without English or French don't have a problem getting a job, they don't advance to better employment.
 
Okay, I found the article and it turns out I got a few things wrong (surprise!). It still illustrates my point though about a growing number of immigrants isolating themselves (or being isolated) from mainstream society.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...4.wcensuslanguage0304/BNStory/census2006/home

These are unfortunate stories, but the trend doesn't seem to be increasing. The first example is an older woman who is basically supported by her family.

The 2nd example is disappointing.

Overall though these people are paying a very heavy price for not learning one of the official languages.

As for kids, I had a few friends that were taught another language and learned English in school...they've turned out fine. Actually they're better off than a lot of other people because now they're fluent in 2-3 languages.
 
I didn't say it was common though, and if i implied that it's not what I meant. The majority of immigrants are not like that. I didn't mean to imply they were, just that increasingly more and more immigrants are falling through society's cracks and becoming isolated. It is a serious worry because, as you pointed out, these people can't interact with a broader society for education and work rendering them dependent on family and low paying service sector jobs.


Imo it is wrong for a young person to come here and after 20 years not be able to speak some decent form of English. Like if someone's old Grandmother can't that it is not a problem.

I know some people who are isolated from the world and still speak English quite well. They go to private schools and do not have any friends from other communities but they still know English.

My parents were quite isolationist at first when they came here in 1981, however they changed after we become friends with our Italian neighbour.
You can't blame them for being isolated, there was only 12 other Punjabi families in Brampton at that time and blatant racism was everywhere.

It was really after 1998-2000 that I really saw an end to public racism. Last time was in 2002, I think.

Actually that Italian neighbour is perhaps the reason why my parents broke out of that bubble 25 years ago.
 

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