Will Toronto benefit from the Quebec Charter of values fisaco?

[kbdid]

No, I think that we shouldn't be suppressing freedom of religion in favour of secularism, especially when it seems to be implied unequally. I don't care if a doctor who treats me or the person who takes my driver's license photo is wearing a kippa or a hijab; they're not preaching at me. As long as something doesn't get in the way of others' freedoms or safety, I don't see a reason to ban any religious items.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

In reply to Tewder's queries of Oct. 1, about Quebec's alleged racism...

If I understand your questions correctly, I don't think Quebecers are any more racist than people in the rest of Canada. Perhaps they are less so.

Yes, there are small town attitudes in the hinterland, just as there are in Ontario. And there are assh-les in the cities as well. But Quebec welcomed (French-speaking) Haitiens and Vietnamese and Lebanese no problem, and they are very much assimilated into the culture. The area between Concordia U. and the old Forum is literally a Little Arabia, packed with shwarma joints and foreign students, and the only violence that has occurred in there had to do with hockey losses.

I do think there is a deep misunderstanding of Quebec by the rest of Canada. I blame the media to a large extent which, since the 60s, made up for the fact that news in the other provinces was boring but Quebec had so much going on: FLQ bombings, Expo, the Olympics, Trudeau, the October Crisis, etc.

I don't think Canadians have a clue how hated Trudeau became after the War Measures Act, a piece of political overkill which traumatized everybody for no reason. Even Trudeau would go on to admit it was a stupid mistake. It led to the rise of the PQ, the referenda and all the other BS that followed. The media made the most of it because it played so well to the masses.

I think Quebec is about one thing and one thing only, at least to the older generations who are dying off anyway. The preservation of their joyous culture (which sure beats anything in anglo Canada) and their language. They have the right to speak French in their daily lives and so they should. Isn't it interesting how often you hear perfectly bilingual French-speakers on, say CBC Radio, and how rarely you hear the reverse?

While I have a lot of problems around the singling out of certain religious symbols while maintaining the cross in the legislature and on every church at the centre of every small St-Something town, as well as on every street corner of Montreal, I understand the (misguided) attempt to eliminate visible differences between people. That said, Marois is a clumsy idiot and I hope she goes down in flames.

What I do find fascinating is how everybody talks about racism in Quebec but nobody ever mentions the widespread Canadian prejudice against French-speakers.

 

[egotrippin]

My cut/paste/quote skills are nil, so to whoever was quoting the Q'ran as a hate manual, perhaps you didn't realize you were quoting sections devoted to Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah (which does not mention lesbianism, btw). There is debate, as within Christianity, whether the true affront was homosexuality or rape. There are also some nice little nuggets promising young boys to men. Before calling another religious text a hate manual, I'd suggest a reread of the Old Testament.

fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/quran-homo.asp

To the topic, I'd say any doctor, lawyer, teacher etc affected by this ban, so clearly aimed at non Christians, would make Toronto a better place. I do hope, however, that this doesn't pass and it becomes a non issue.

I was calling religious texts hate manuals in jest and just pointing out that, depending on how one interprets the material, many of them can be used to "justify" discriminatory views. Ultimately they're just story books, pieced together from various accounts of events that may or may not have happened. I'm not religious at all, but I do find a fascination in reading the Old Testament and even the Qur'an. Some people devote their lives to them, I merely treat them like a fictional read.

 

[doady]

What I do find fascinating is how everybody talks about racism in Quebec but nobody ever mentions the widespread Canadian prejudice against French-speakers.

Last I checked, the use of French is not restricted by law in the ROC the same way non-French languages are restricted by law in Quebec.

Yes, outside of Montreal, Quebec is quite racist. And this Charter is yet another example.

When they get rid of the cross in their national assembly, and get rid of the cross in the their flag, and eliminate all the mandatory Christian holidays, and change all city, town, village, municpality, street names with the word "Saint" or "Sainte" in them, and restrict the wearing of all crosses, then maybe I'd be okay with these proprosed restrictions on non-Christian religious garb. Otherwise Quebeckers need to STFU.

 

[freshcutgrass]

What I do find fascinating is how everybody talks about racism in Quebec but nobody ever mentions the widespread Canadian prejudice against French-speakers.

The preservation of their joyous culture (which sure beats anything in anglo Canada)

Seriously? Could you be more hypocritical.

And the big difference being that ROC does not officially condone racism/prejudice by legislating it.

Isn't it interesting how often you hear perfectly bilingual French-speakers on, say CBC Radio, and how rarely you hear the reverse?

Probably because english is by far the most widely spoken language...you are always going to hear that regardless of what the non-english language is. And are you talking about bilingualism in Quebec? Quebec isn't interested in bilingualism. You're right...It's a lopsided effort for sure....but just the opposite of what you are suggesting.

 

[OttoSchloss]

I do think there is a deep misunderstanding of Quebec by the rest of Canada.

Maybe so, but there's a huge misunderstanding or just outright refusal by sectors in Quebec to even bother to get to know the ROC. It's not all blame (English-speaking) Canada. Chauvinistic attitudes about Canada and culture abound in Quebec and its media and frankly 40 years later, most "anglo" Canadians do not exist and certainly don't want to be either blamed for Quebec's historic ills or treated like foreign colonists.

The reality is, every day is basically a slow news day in this country and the that's why the Charter made news. Otherwise most people do not spend their waking hours thinking about Quebec, or Alberta or B.C. etc. It's media-manufactured outrage about as authentic as Marois's reasoning for the charter. In other words, pass the remote, something better is on the t.v.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Last I checked, the use of French is not restricted by law in the ROC the same way non-French languages are restricted by law in Quebec.

Yes, outside of Montreal, Quebec is quite racist. And this Charter is yet another example.

When they get rid of the cross in their national assembly, and get rid of the cross in the their flag, and eliminate all the mandatory Christian holidays, and change all city, town, village, municpality, street names with the word "Saint" or "Sainte" in them, and restrict the wearing of all crosses, then maybe I'd be okay with these proprosed restrictions on non-Christian religious garb. Otherwise Quebeckers need to STFU.

If you understood history, you would know that this is not so simple. Quebec was all but owned by the Church since Champlain and Cartier. Vast swaths of land still belong to the Church. For the first could of centuries, until the Conquest, it was almost a feudal society no thanks to the Church. After the Conquest, the British, in order to head off a US-style revolution and to prevent the Canadiens from joining up with the US revolutionaries, cut a deal: let them keep their civil code and religion. Therefore, until Jean Lesage came along, the Church ran Quebec. I can recall a time when Cardinal Leger banned drive-in movies because they were sinful! As a result, Quebec was an adolescent society that ran wild in the late 60s post-Quiet Revolution.

If they named their towns after saints, it's for deep historical reasons. Most of these towns were founded before Toronto had streets. You can't undo it all. I can object to the naming of streets and towns in Toronto after men who exploited workers and the land. We all have our pet peeves.

True, the flag has a cross. So does the Ontario flag. In fact, the Ontario flag has two. So who cares?

Ever go into the English Canadian hinterland and ask about Quebec? I have. There is a very deep prejudice. You can't deny it.

Last but not least, Marois has a MINORITY government and never once ran on this BS charter. Bouchard and Parizeau both have trashed it. And yet here you are, generalizing about Quebec and Quebecers.

Hmmm....

 

[Johnny Au]

Ontario's flag has 4 crosses: three on the Union Jack and one on the shield; though there are three different crosses: St. George's cross (on the Union Jack and on the shield), St. Andrew's cross, and St. Patrick's cross.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Ontario's flag has 4 crosses: three on the Union Jack and one on the shield; though there are three different crosses: St. George's cross (on the Union Jack and on the shield), St. Andrew's cross, and St. Patrick's cross.

Well there ya go then.

And I highly resent all this British Empire nostalgia here.

 

[Johnny Au]

Well there ya go then.

And I highly resent all this British Empire nostalgia here.

Ontario really needs to shape its own destiny. Canada had shed its Red Ensign almost half a century ago. It would be interesting to have Ontario's flag redesigned to have less emphasis on its British origin (although its coat of arms can stay the same). The percentage of Ontarians of British descent is dropping. The same can be done with Manitoba (which has a similar flag to Ontario) and be redesigned to have greater emphasis on the Métis.

 

[Tewder]

But Quebec welcomed (French-speaking) Haitiens and Vietnamese and Lebanese no problem, and they are very much assimilated into the culture. The area between Concordia U. and the old Forum is literally a Little Arabia, packed with shwarma joints and foreign students, and the only violence that has occurred in there had to do with hockey losses.

... which only adds to what I was saying before. The irony here is that people who are labelling Quebec racist are showing themselves to be the culturally ignorant and intolerant ones. That Quebec as a society may value secularism at the government level doesn't equate to racism, provided the value is applied uniformly... and yes, some reasonable concessions can be made for historic/heritage reasons, for 400 year-old place names for example. I do think the cross in the assembly absolutely must go though, even I can't overlook that contradiction!

I do think there is a deep misunderstanding of Quebec by the rest of Canada.

I think Quebec is about one thing and one thing only, at least to the older generations who are dying off anyway. The preservation of their joyous culture (which sure beats anything in anglo Canada) and their language.

This misunderstanding isn't driven by anglo/French conflict anymore (which really doesn't exist much outside of Quebec these days, the animosities tend to flow westward, if anywhere) so much as it is by the ascendancy of Multiculturalism in the rest of Canada. In this context it is ideologically unfathomable to some that a dominating cultural identity might actually continue to exist somewhere in this country, and in a place that does claim to value diversity. To some though this is an irreconcilable contradiction, one that amounts to intolerance, pure and simple. Case in point:

Yes, outside of Montreal, Quebec is quite racist. And this Charter is yet another example.

When they get rid of the cross in their national assembly, and get rid of the cross in the their flag, and eliminate all the mandatory Christian holidays, and change all city, town, village, municpality, street names with the word "Saint" or "Sainte" in them, and restrict the wearing of all crosses, then maybe I'd be okay with these proprosed restrictions on non-Christian religious garb. Otherwise Quebeckers need to STFU.

I'm just not sure though. The charter is flawed, yes, but I suspect that the vitriolic cries of racism here have more to do with reverse intolerance. In other words, people demanding cultural tolerance of others (in demanding the right to wear religious symbols everywhere) are not extending cultural tolerance to others in society (in not respecting the fundamental value that is the separation of state and religion).

It's a tricky issue to be sure, not nearly as 'black and white' as some here are painting it to be.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Thank you Tewder.

 

[Thanos]

If I understand your questions correctly, I don't think Quebecers are any more racist than people in the rest of Canada. Perhaps they are less so.

As someone who grew up in Montreal and experienced much racism I must say...are you shi**ing me Montreal girl? Get off your high horse.

Yes, there are small town attitudes in the hinterland, just as there are in Ontario. And there are assh-les in the cities as well. But Quebec welcomed (French-speaking) Haitiens and Vietnamese and Lebanese no problem, and they are very much assimilated into the culture.

I'll bet the bank that Haitians will completely disagree with you. Maybe we should take a walk in Montreal Nord. As for Lebanese, well only the Christian ones would maybe agree with you. While we're at it lets talk about the north Africans such as the Moroccans, Tunisians and Nigerians. I don't know which Quebec you speak of because it certainly isn't the one I grew up in.

The area between Concordia U. and the old Forum is literally a Little Arabia, packed with shwarma joints and foreign students, and the only violence that has occurred in there had to do with hockey losses.

Last I checked, which was last weekend, this area is more Asian than anything. Most restaurants are Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese. It resembles more Toronto's Queen East Chinatown. When's the last time you've ever been to Montreal.

I don't think Canadians have a clue how hated Trudeau became after the War Measures Act, a piece of political overkill which traumatized everybody for no reason. Even Trudeau would go on to admit it was a stupid mistake. It led to the rise of the PQ, the referenda and all the other BS that followed. The media made the most of it because it played so well to the masses.

What does this have to do with anything? Yes, several in Quebec hated Trudeau and still do. Western Canada hated Trudeau though for different reasons.

The preservation of their joyous culture (which sure beats anything in anglo Canada) and their language..

??? You are one condescending individual.

They have the right to speak French in their daily lives and so they should.

Last I checked no one in the ROC wants to take that right away.

Isn't it interesting how often you hear perfectly bilingual French-speakers on, say CBC Radio, and how rarely you hear the reverse?.

Why does someone working for CBC or any other job in Ontario or to the west have to speak French?

While I have a lot of problems around the singling out of certain religious symbols while maintaining the cross in the legislature and on every church at the centre of every small St-Something town, as well as on every street corner of Montreal, I understand the (misguided) attempt to eliminate visible differences between people.

Absolutely not. If Quebec wants to be secular then I see no need to maintain the cross in the national assembly.

What I do find fascinating is how everybody talks about racism in Quebec but nobody ever mentions the widespread Canadian prejudice against French-speakers.

There is prejudice against Quebecers in Canada just as there is prejudice against the Anglophones in Quebec.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

As someone who grew up in Montreal and experienced much racism I must say...are you shi**ing me Montreal girl? Get off your high horse.



I'll bet the bank that Haitians will completely disagree with you. Maybe we should take a walk in Montreal Nord. As for Lebanese, well only the Christian ones would maybe agree with you. While we're at it lets talk about the north Africans such as the Moroccans, Tunisians and Nigerians. I don't know which Quebec you speak of because it certainly isn't the one I grew up in.



Last I checked, which was last weekend, this area is more Asian than anything. Most restaurants are Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese. It resembles more Toronto's Queen East Chinatown. When's the last time you've ever been to Montreal.



What does this have to do with anything? Yes, several in Quebec hated Trudeau and still do. Western Canada hated Trudeau though for different reasons.



??? You are one condescending individual.



Last I checked no one in the ROC wants to take that right away.



Why does someone working for CBC or any other job in Ontario or to the west have to speak French?



Absolutely not. If Quebec wants to be secular then I see no need to maintain the cross in the national assembly.



There is prejudice against Quebecers in Canada just as there is prejudice against the Anglophones in Quebec.

Anger management much? Can you not have a discussion without getting emotional?

I spend 4 months a year in Montreal. I have a condo on Sherbrooke, steps from Concordia. I bought it in 1992 at a very low price and now it's worth a ton. I often walk my dog along Ste-Catherine or de Maisonneuve or Tupper from Atwater. Yes, a lot of Vietnamese noodle joints, a Mandarin-style buffet, etc. line Ste-Catherine but I see plenty of Arab places. A very nice Arab restaurant with a beautiful patio is on Sherbrooke, SW corner, next to the old Grosvenor Mansions, just opened. There's a new Adonis market opposite the old Forum.

True, you don't need French like you used to to do business with Quebec. But tough luck if somebody wants to work in national news at CBC or CTV or Global in Canada, anywhere in Canada, and not speak French. Every damn federal MP better learn too. My children are also perfectly bilingual and have great careers as a result. There are two official languages in Canada. Get used to that.

I'm perfectly bilingual and have been all my life. I have never heard a racist thing in French that I haven't heard in Ontario in English, whether we're talking about South Asians, Jamaicans or Somalians.

As for only Christian North Africans being accepted (and that might comes as a surprise to my Jewish Moroccan and Egyptian friends), I must have missed the part where they demand to see a baptism certificate before they accept a person into the Christians-only club.

I wonder if, outside of the Toronto area, which is multicultural (as is Montreal), in Northern Ontario or in the sticks elsewhere, there's no racism or antisemitism.

 

[OttoSchloss]

I doubt there's much antisemitism in Northern Ontario. There just aren't enough Jews up there to "justify" it. I'm sure there's a ton of ill will directed at natives and... franco-Ontarians. BTW no place is a paradise as far as acceptance goes. But I do think North America in particular despite its hand wringing and white-guilt is probably the least racist region on Earth. People in Europe and Asia are, let's face it, 1000x more racist (and openly so) than we are culturally in the Americas (yeah even the so called progressive nations, France's embrace of jazz musicians notwithstanding). Immigrants are treated as "guests" of the host country in most nations on Earth, save for the anglo-sphere. That's why adopting what amounts to a European model for cultural assimilation just seems like an anathema to (historic) North American values. Keep in mind that originally Quebeckers were a conquered people and no the English did not say, assimilate or get on the next trade ship back to France.