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Will Ignatieff Pull The Plug On Harper Monday?

Will Ignatieff vote no-confidence in Harper by Monday?


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But I doubt it could motivate people to commit to transit beyond their daily commutes the way the tax credit has. I am all for setting price signals that reward good behaviour (transit tax credit) and reward bad ones (sin taxes + gas tax).

Actually convenience (which requires increased service levels) is a FAR better motivator of transit use than a tax credit that barely makes a dent. Besides, as unimaginative already mentioned, tax credits only benefits those who are taxed - when we already know that the rate of transit use is highest among the low(er) income. Ditto tax credit for sports equipment - if you are poor, you are not likely to be the ones buying them - and at the same time we know that health status tends to be poorer within that group.

AoD
 
^ Note what I said earlier. I have no problems with tax cuts going to the bottom of the income scale. However, if we aren't going to give all the tax cuts to the lowest income earners (and the Liberals didn't do that either), why can't the tax cuts going to middle and high income earners be used to promote positive behaviours? You have rightly pointed out, that these tax cuts benefits middle and high income earners more (because they are the ones who pay taxes). If the government is committed to giving these groups tax cuts anyways, what's wrong with making it conditional on things like transit use and participation in athletics?
 
A tax credit isn't the simplest policy tool in this situation.

Really? While I would like to see more base funding for transit, I don' t see any policy in the real world that would have instantly reduced the price of transit passes by 15% nationally. Any transit funding would have taken years to flow through the system and none of it would have reduced fares. And really what the policy achieves is a shift from using tickets to promoting passes. The credit reduces the price differential between single ride fares and passes. The credit may well have contributed to the increasing popularity of Metropasses.

In terms of health promotion, a tax credit could be simpler than penalizing a huge array of things that are bad for us.

And as discussed in the other thread, administering a tax credit for fitness would be a nightmare. And it'd be far worse than the minute bureaucracy that's needed to administer a refund on transit passes.

Needing proof of purchase is onerous, and I imagine the credit is expensive and time consuming for the bureaucracy to validate.

Oh please. Are you seriously suggesting that saving a few transit passes is onerous? It's hardly more onerous than the myriad of T slips that you have to collect or other receipts that you have to keep. And there are ways to keep it simple. Since my pass gets deducted from my pay every month, I get a print-out at tax time from my pay office showing how much I have spent on transit passes all year. I don't need to save the passes.


Carbon taxes are vastly simpler than the mishmash of exemptions, credits, and transfers we'll see as part of cap and trade.

You are diverting from the initial topic. You suggested that a transit tax credit adds complexity to the tax code. I suggested that it adds no more complexit than the myriad of regulation proposed under the Green Shift. In the end, any kind of regulation seeking to cost out climate change would significantly impact the complexity of the tax code. But none of that would add more complexity than letting individuals deduct 15% of their spending on transit passes. Really, how is this more complex than say the education deduction?
 
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Would the same reasoning not apply towards your own proposal for a fitness tax credit? Would it not end up in pockets of regular gym goers and cost everyone else more? If that's the case, is it terrible policy? At it's core, I see nothing wrong with crafting tax policies to reward good behaviour. Perhaps the problem with the transit tax credit is that it's just not big enough to prompt people to switch from cars. That does not mean the idea is all that bad. I can easily see the Liberals expanding on this. I do agree with you, that it should have been coupled with some kind of tax on negative behaviour (increase gas tax maybe?).

Isn't this pretty much the problem with any tax credit that you engineer with rewarding good behaviour? People at the bottom of the income chain are likely to do anything and everything less than people further up. Now I don't mind all tax cuts going to the bottom of the ladder but then I don't want the charade of calling it tax cuts for the middle class. The Liberals did give tax cuts across the board (albeit less at the top). And those middle class cuts could have easily gone into promoting transit. If we are going to give cuts to the middle class, what's wrong with making it conditional on them actually doing something for it?

I definitely agree with you that the idea isn't all that bad. If we're going to allow people to write off their car lease and their gas expenses, it's only reasonable that they be allowed to write off their transit pass, too. I'd have made it refundable, though, if I were going to do it, and I'd prefer to just eliminate the write-off for cars altogether. Write-offs disproportionately benefit the upper class who can afford to hire accountants to figure them all out. Right-wingers have a point when they talk about a flat tax that you can fill out on a postcard. The problem is that they try to lump in removing the brackets, which are really an incredibly simple and beneficial concept, with removing the often-dubious write-offs. I'd obviously keep some for charities and the like, plus benefits like the Child Tax Benefit.

As for increasing the complexity of the tax code, can you imagine how much the Green Shift would have done? That does not mean the ideas don't sometimes have merit. As long as we don't up with a US style tax code that comes in phone book sized volumes, we'll be okay to tinker here and there.

The Green Shift really wasn't particularly complex. It's a standard percentage tax on carbon, offset by across-the-board income tax cuts to the lower brackets and increases to the Child Tax Credit (which, unlike most of these taxes, is refundable).

I agree with this:

Why Canada needed an election this summer

Jun 18, 2009 04:30 AM

Bob Hepburn

Michael Ignatieff and Stephen Harper are boasting about their agreement unveiled yesterday that keeps the minority Conservative government in power and avoids an election this summer they claim nobody wanted.

"This is a good day for our country," Ignatieff insisted, as he rejected suggestions Harper won this latest parliamentary showdown by forcing the Liberal leader to retreat from his threats to force an early election.

"Do I look steamrollered?" he asked in announcing his deal with Harper to create a powerless working group to look into employment insurance reforms.

The answer is "yes."

That's because Harper is doing an overall lousy job of governing Canada and a summer election was exactly what Canada needed to get the new leadership this country so desperately needs.

In the private sector, management teams that aren't performing and have no realistic plans to turn things around are replaced quickly, regardless of what season it is.

The same standards should apply in Ottawa.

Here's why Canada needed a summer election:

1. The economy: Harper and Finance Minister Jim Flaherty have completely misunderstood and mismanaged the current recession. Last November they were predicting rosy times and a budget surplus this year of $800 million. Flaherty is now forecasting the deficit at $50 billion, the largest in Canadian history. The Conservatives only began to come to grips with the recession after the three opposition parties almost toppled them in December.

2. Employment insurance: Huge inequities exist and still Harper won't act to reform the system. Less than 25 per cent of unemployed workers in Toronto can collect EI benefits, and when they do they get fewer benefits than comparable workers elsewhere.

3. Infrastructure money: Harper claims 80 per cent of the infrastructure initiatives promised in the spring budget are already being implemented. That's sheer folly. Across the country, municipal leaders are asking: "Where's the money?" Well, it's tied up in bureaucratic red tape and will take months, if not years, before it results in many new jobs.

4. A dysfunctional Parliament: While hundreds of thousands are losing their jobs, MPs are spending their days yelling at each other about lost tape recorders, Senate reform and get-tough laws on hardened criminals. Indeed, Parliament has not passed a major piece of non-budgetary legislation since the Tories took power in January 2006.

5. Harper's contempt of Parliament: Harper thinks so little of the institution that he released his economic update last week in Guelph – not the House of Commons – with a phony question-and answer session hosted by Mike Duffy, the former TV political reporter who is now a senator.

6. Attitude toward Toronto: Harper and the Tories hate this city. The most blatant example came last week when Transport Minister John Baird told his aides that Toronto officials who were complaining about Ottawa's slow handling of requests for infrastructure money "should f--- off." Imagine the reaction in Calgary, Montreal or Vancouver if Baird had said that about officials there.

It's easy for politicians and pundits to toss around phrases such as "nobody wants an election." Polls easily support their claims, even though pollsters say voters almost never want an election.

It's also easy for many middle-class Canadians, secure in their jobs, to say they don't want a summer election because it would interfere with their vacation or because they don't want to consider "heavy stuff" like public policy when it's nice outside.

For the growing legions of jobless workers, however, a summer election would have been ideal. They need new leadership – and they need it sooner rather than later.

Which is why Ignatieff should have displayed true leadership and taken this opportunity to force the election that "nobody wanted."

Bob Hepburn's column appears Thursdays. bhepburn@thestar.ca
 
He's too much of a politician, I guess. Is there anyone else out there ready to take over though?

I always figured that Layton's problem is that he's not ENOUGH of a politician, and therefore content to remain principled and irrelevant.
 
A party generally doesn't have a need to have more than talking points until they get elected.

NDP talking points generally revolve around:

*Keeping the public health system strong and public instead of weakened and privatized, strengthen funding and create more medical school slots
*Ensuring that everyday Canadians get a fair game, and they speak out on issues like ABM fees and the like, regulating industry so that telephone fees and cable fees are reasonable. These are things the Liberals should start stealing from the NDP and run with it.
*Keeping Canada out of war, no exceptions
*EI reform during the economic crisis
*An urban oriented infrastructure infusion well beyond stimulus (although with the Toronto Dipper community, I wonder if it would be more streetcars instead of subways when DRL is necessary)

The problem comes when most of these platform ideas are essentially Liberal talking points as well. I give the NDP credit where credit is due: they are opposing the Conservatives like the Liberals should be doing. The NDP has filled a Liberal vacuum in this regard. Ignatieff has rolled over and he's done the wrong thing by not calling an election or forming a coalition.
 
I always figured that Layton's problem is that he's not ENOUGH of a politician, and therefore content to remain principled and irrelevant.

That sounds more like Dion. Layton's definitely a politician, and his main goal over everything is to surpass the Liberals to become the official opposition. Look at Saanich-Gulf Islands last election: even though the NDP candidate was forced to drop out of the race due to indecent exposure, his name stayed on the ballot and the NDP carried out a phone campaign to get people to vote for him instead of the environmentalist Liberal, allowing the notably regressive Tory cabinet minister to be re-elected. They did the same thing in Durham, though that was a less close race.
 
The one thing that never ceases to amaze me is the fact that the NDP wins as many rural ridings as it does. How does that happen? Virtually their entire platform seems to be geared towards hard left urbanites. You would think that the Liberals would be left party of choice for these voters, since transit, affordable housing, gun control, etc. aren't really issues that rural voters care about.
 
... I give the NDP credit where credit is due: they are opposing the Conservatives like the Liberals should be doing. The NDP has filled a Liberal vacuum in this regard....

Here's why they can afford to be principled:

I always figured that Layton's problem is that he's not ENOUGH of a politician, and therefore content to remain principled and irrelevant.

You can be principled or you can be pragmatic and get a chance to put those principles into action (in a moderated way). You can't do both. The NDP, at the federal level, doesn't really seem like they want to govern. They seem to largely represent hard left special interests (big labour, environmentalists (of the Green Peace type), etc.) which they do well. But they really don't seem interested in actually forming government. To me, they simply appear to want to be the Liberal's leftist conscience. There's nothing wrong with that. I just wish that they'd be more honest about it.
 
Why is keeping out of war, ensuring public health care, regulating business a 'hard left, urbanite' affair? It seems to me that those kinds of things generally resonate more with rural voters. City residents are the people who work for the big corporations and depend on them, not rural voters.

Its just the social issues that tend to keep rural voters right leaning as they are less interested in seeing diverse cultures in a general sense.
 
Meh, keeping out of war isn't enough to win ridings though (and incidentally polls show that there's more support for the Afghan war outside cities...that's also where the military bases tend to be). Health care is maybe the only issues where the NDP can stand out. But again I highly doubt the NDP's stance on health care (which is not all that far from the Liberal position) would be enough to swing an entire riding. The other stuff like, like child care, is again not very relevant.

It's a mystery to me why they win the number of rural ridings they do. But maybe that'll go down over time. Or maybe rural voters haven't discovered yet that the NDP is pretty hostile to their way of life.
 
Really? While I would like to see more base funding for transit, I don' t see any policy in the real world that would have instantly reduced the price of transit passes by 15% nationally. Any transit funding would have taken years to flow through the system and none of it would have reduced fares. And really what the policy achieves is a shift from using tickets to promoting passes. The credit reduces the price differential between single ride fares and passes. The credit may well have contributed to the increasing popularity of Metropasses.

I think it'd be fairly straightforward to offer 15% top-ups to fare revenue to every transit operator in the country. The fed already transfers gas tax revenue to municipalities. Even if it doesn't reduce cost of transit by 15% 'instantly' (how instant is a tax credit you have to wait up to 18 months for and keep proof of purchase?), it would help avert the need for fare hikes or allow service to be improved.


And as discussed in the other thread, administering a tax credit for fitness would be a nightmare. And it'd be far worse than the minute bureaucracy that's needed to administer a refund on transit passes.

The stakes are slightly different. At any rate, I acknowledge that such a fitness credit likely would be infeasible given current technology. Go read the report on the tax credit (from the Environment Commissioner I believe). It is fairly scathing: it essentially failed to achieve any measurable result. I think the estimated cost per tonne of CO2 reduced was in the tens of thousands of dollars.

Oh please. Are you seriously suggesting that saving a few transit passes is onerous? It's hardly more onerous than the myriad of T slips that you have to collect or other receipts that you have to keep. And there are ways to keep it simple. Since my pass gets deducted from my pay every month, I get a print-out at tax time from my pay office showing how much I have spent on transit passes all year. I don't need to save the passes.

It's onerous for anyone who doesn't have a transit pass.

You are diverting from the initial topic. You suggested that a transit tax credit adds complexity to the tax code. I suggested that it adds no more complexit than the myriad of regulation proposed under the Green Shift. In the end, any kind of regulation seeking to cost out climate change would significantly impact the complexity of the tax code. But none of that would add more complexity than letting individuals deduct 15% of their spending on transit passes. Really, how is this more complex than say the education deduction?

Not quite. My point is that the simplest policy that achieves the policy goal is often the best one. Carbon taxes, while perhaps relatively more complex than transit tax credits, are still the simplest policy that achieve the goal of reducing CO2 emissions while minimizing overall economic harm. The transit tax credit fails as a policy tool: might as well dump money from helicopters. As far as carbon taxes 'significantly' increasing the complexity of the tax code: colour me skeptical. We already have de facto carbon taxes in the form of excise taxes on fuel. Expand excise taxes to all fossil fuels and eliminate exemptions--done. If you want to get fancy, you can try to go after agriculture and forestry, but it's not strictly necessary.
 
That sounds more like Dion. Layton's definitely a politician, and his main goal over everything is to surpass the Liberals to become the official opposition. Look at Saanich-Gulf Islands last election: even though the NDP candidate was forced to drop out of the race due to indecent exposure, his name stayed on the ballot and the NDP carried out a phone campaign to get people to vote for him instead of the environmentalist Liberal, allowing the notably regressive Tory cabinet minister to be re-elected. They did the same thing in Durham, though that was a less close race.

Agree. Layton is the slickest of the lot.

I also question the claim that the NDP position is 'principled'. Think about what their position of universal opposition implies: there is no policy they would vote in favour of, presumably including policies friendly to their supposed 'principles'. Their refusal to negotiate for support also guarantees that their 'principled' position will be ignored by the Conservatives (and everyone else).

Beyond that, their policies are frequently shamelessly populist and bereft of critical thought. They vehemently oppose the idea of carbon taxes despite professing a concern for CO2 emissions. They also claim to be concerned about the poor, but many of their policies would primarily benefit the upper middle class union types they cater to.
 
The one thing that never ceases to amaze me is the fact that the NDP wins as many rural ridings as it does. How does that happen? Virtually their entire platform seems to be geared towards hard left urbanites. You would think that the Liberals would be left party of choice for these voters, since transit, affordable housing, gun control, etc. aren't really issues that rural voters care about.

They really don't win all that many any more. These days it generally has to do with the personal popularity of the MP. There are only about 2 or 3 safe NDP ridings in the country, so by definition and NDP MP has to be a hard worker. That's to their great credit and it's why they're so hard to dislodge them once they're elected. Acadie-Bathurst is one of the naturally safest Liberal ridings around, but it's Yvon Godin's seat as long as he wants it.

In the 80s, when the NDP was winning a lot of rural seats, it was simply a matter of protest. Mulroney had become identified with Quebec as the Liberals always were. The NDP were the only Quebec-free option.
 
I think you guys should look at the reality of the NDP today, the Coliation mess has really hurt that party and many do not see it as the "party above it all", Layton silly jokes are not funny any more and people realized he is an idiot like all of them.


NDP will lose quite a few seats in the next election...

NDP always suffers when the Liberals are in a strong position. Some of you will argue that Iggy is to Centrist, but the same was said about Chretien in 1993 and Dalton in 2003. Look what happened the NDP was massacred.
Your telling me that no one who voted NDP would switch to vote for the Liberals, if the Liberals have a great chance at knocking out Harper?? NDP supporters are hardcore but every party has a swing vote.

Plus your an idiot if you give the NDP credit for always opposing the government. They are the third party who will never get power and will of course now even get Official opposition. They are the protest party who does not have the worry about actual governing. They can yell and scream all they want because that is the only thing they can do and ever will do.


PS: I hate the NDP, I would rather vote for Harper before I vote for that lost cause.
 
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