Why to support the Liberal Party

[Eug]

Heheh, you know you're right wing when... Even Stephen Harper's (abortion) policies are to the left of you...

 

[Eug]

Yeah, I didn't bother mentioning that because regardless of who he was (unless he was some sort of star), I wouldn't vote Conservative anyway. However, your point is appropriate because regardless of his party affiliation, I likely would not have voted for him. His actions in order to run for this election have not passed the smell test.

BTW, I find this this whole Peter Kent vs. Harper vs. Paranchothy brouhaha rather amusing.

Hmmm... In Scarborough Southwest as of 10:10 pm the riding is exactly tied Conservative and NDP.

 

[kEiThZ]

Brandon didn't understand when I tried to explain it to him....but it's happened: the Liberals got demolished.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. A huge chunk of the Liberal base aren't H arper haters. Indeed they are centrists. By shifting to the left, the Liberals yielded the centre to the Conserative. This guaranteed a Conservative majority. Leftist Liberals defected to the NDP.

 

[wanderer66]

And in comes Bob Rae to fill the void?

 

[doady]

I guess Brandon was right after all, at least for those of us who do not live in Toronto's inner city, Scarborough, Jane-Finch, Malton, or Bramalea.

 

[Brandon716]

I guess Brandon was right after all, at least for those of us who do not live in Toronto's inner city, Scarborough, Jane-Finch, Malton, or Bramalea.

Of course I was right. Quebec is on a completely different playing field than the rest of Canada, there is no Conservative base there at present day. The NDP surge didn't translate into a surge in Atlantic Canada or Ontario... In most of Canada a vote for the NDP is simply a vote for Harper Majority Government. Now Canada is stuck with it for 4 years. Oh well... I did my part to try and fight against it.

I sympathize with the NDP on so many levels, but when the end of the day comes the NDP tends to form governments that aren't any different from the Liberals. Most NDP governments on the provincial level govern either similar to a Liberal government, or even in some rare cases to the right of a Liberal government. Jack Layton played all the right tunes, and he's a good politician. The Liberal party I think made many mistakes, including nominating Ignatieff leader.

I could go on and on about strategy, but here is why the NDP rise happened, and why it is temporary:

1) PQ and BQ held meeting in the middle of the election cycle, boasting about how they are eager to bring back a referendum. It gets noticed in French media, but gets totally overlooked in English media. Quebecers aren't looking to separate, so they run into the hands of the NDP.
2) Stephen Harper's Conservatives have ran a 24/7 anti-Liberal, anti-Ignatieff campaign since day one. It is worse than the American system IMO... Even the Tea Party caucus of the Republicans aren't running 24/7 anti-Obama ads year round. This facilitated people hating the Liberals and Ignatieff, and it ran voters right into the hands of Jack Layton.
3) Jack Layton did remarkably well in the debates, he scores his own points here.
4) Ignatieff simply is not the best Liberal leader that could have been chosen. Nominating someone who spent the majority of his adulthood out of Canadian identity, out of the sphere of the issues isn't easy to defend.
5) The NDP rise is temporary simply because the party has many candidates that aren't qualified for governance. The wave in Quebec was simply a wave of enthusiasm that might not be sustainable, I hear one riding has a non-french speaking pole dancer from a strip club that won.
6) Stephen Harper's Conservatives got assistance with two things, primarily: a small percentage of voters in other parties, particularly the Liberals and "Blue Liberals" if you will, got afraid of what was happening in Quebec and didn't want to vote for a possibility of a coalition. Another issue that helped him win a few extra percent is low overall voter turnout. I hear this election actually had lower turnout than the last, surprisingly enough... Whether this is true or not we'll find out soon enough.

For the mean time we'll have 4 long, hard years to examine these results. I did my part to help against this and actively campaigned for the Liberals, it was hurtful to see the Conservative majority. But it isn't the end of the world.

 

[Brandon716]

^BTW, seeing the NDP rally kind of reminded me of how losing can be a bliss of ignorance. The NDP lost.. No matter how good the party succeeded, no matter how much of an increase in ridings they won, they still lost to a Harper Majority Government. You shouldn't celebrate all kinds of things you can't accomplish because now you effectively have no voice at all. It doesn't matter that the party now holds 65+ more seats than it did before, the party has less voice now with a majority Conservative government than it did as a minority party with 39 seats and a Harper minority. All those things people were hearing Jack talk about sound great, until you realize there is no voice and no power to effect any of it, and that he had more power with 39 seats under the old arrangement, holding that over Harper's head when he pleased.

But the NDP rally was more about destroying the Liberal party than it was for positive change for Canada, just like Harper's desire to totally obliterate the Liberal party. When obliterating a party is what comes first, and caring about the governance of a nation comes second, this is clearly what happens. The NDP party looked as if they won when the left now effectively has no voice.

I said it before, I said it again, either the NDP has to show up and form a government or they should close up shop and merge into the Liberals. I think we now know what the other option is, the NDP didn't form a government and the Liberals have been effectively punished for whatever perceived/manufactured wrongdoings they have committed. If an outright party merger isn't possible, an official coalition with some neato ideas, such as not running NDP and Liberal candidates in the same ridings, maybe running NDP candidates in the Piraries and BC while running Liberal candidates in Ontario and Atlantic Canada is a better option... Whatever happens, something serious and some kind of formal arrangement of a coalition or merger needs to happen.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

By shifting to the left, the Liberals yielded the centre to the Conserative. This guaranteed a Conservative majority. Leftist Liberals defected to the NDP.

why would leftist liberals defect to the ndp if the liberals shifted to the left? wouldn't leftist liberals stay with their party if it shifted to the left?

-edit-

do you mean because the liberals lost the centre vote because of their left shift, this hurt their chances so leftist liberals went with the ndp because the ndp had a greater chance of winning than the liberals?

IMO, the relentless attack ads on iggy played a huge role in this election. they probably reached the most people than debates & news articles.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Mostly, what destroyed the Liberals was their general uselessness as an effective official opposition. The NDP stepped in and filled that role for years and were rewarded for doing so by the electorate.

 

[goodjiya]

Just a few reasons on what they have to offer to me.

 

[Eug]

But the NDP rally was more about destroying the Liberal party than it was for positive change for Canada

The NDP rally was about destroying the Bloc, and personally I think that's a big win for Canada.

And aside from some vote splitting, the Liberals destroyed themselves.

 

[kEiThZ]

I guess Brandon was right after all, at least for those of us who do not live in Toronto's inner city, Scarborough, Jane-Finch, Malton, or Bramalea.

He was partially right. The NDP made gains throughout Canada. It's just that Quebec helped them earn the crown of the Loyal Opposition.

Brandon's bitter. And he's trying to minimize an absolutely historic NDP moment.

why would leftist liberals defect to the ndp if the liberals shifted to the left? wouldn't leftist liberals stay with their party if it shifted to the left?

Because the Liberal shift to the left legitimized the NDP platform and also legitimized the Conservative attacks on the Liberals. Surely, if their attacks on the NDP as being potentially fiscally irresponsible were true, then the label could also be applied to the Liberals as well.

That's the story here (in my most humble opinion). Traditionally the Liberals ran on the centre-left and governed on the centre or centre-right even. This time they ran damn close to the NDP and their centrist supporters got spooked and jumped ship for the Conservatives, while their leftist supporters suddenly felt comfortable with the NDP, since the positions seemed so close. The Liberals were faced by parties on both sides that run on ideological platforms that they fully intend to pursue. -edit-

do you mean because the liberals lost the centre vote because of their left shift, this hurt their chances so leftist liberals went with the ndp because the ndp had a greater chance of winning than the liberals?

There was an element of this to be sure. But I don't think it was the decisive factor in the NDP getting the Opposition crown. We are seeing a far more fundamental shift.

IMO, the relentless attack ads on iggy played a huge role in this election. they probably reached the most people than debates & news articles.

Yes and no. Look at Obama in the US. How savagely he was attacked. The whisper (and now outright talk) campaigns about his legitimacy. The racism. Etc. He still won. Attack ads only work if they stick. If they don't, the party that ran them can look very, very mean-spirited. IMHO, Iggy lost because the man offered no concrete vision. He came off as an old school Liberal selling the old fear-of-the-right medicine that just does not sell after two minority Conservative governments. Layton on the other hand offered a positive upbeat message. He didn't so much talk about how bad the Conservatives as he did about how much the NDP could do for Canadians. He offered an alternative vision and was rewarded for it.

 

[kEiThZ]

I guess Brandon was right after all, at least for those of us who do not live in Toronto's inner city, Scarborough, Jane-Finch, Malton, or Bramalea.

The NDP rally was about destroying the Bloc, and personally I think that's a big win for Canada.

And aside from some vote splitting, the Liberals destroyed themselves.

+1

Fully agree. I really dislike and despise this kind of bitterness. But what can you do? I have said before that Brandon only looks at things through a left-right lens. A learned behaviour from his American upbringing. When you look at things from such a polarized lens, anything but an outright victory of "your side" is considered an unmitigated disaster.

How could anybody completely ignore the savaging of the Bloc last night and then come away with, "All is lost. Harper won." as the only takeaway? Quebec rejoined the federalist landscape. Toronto rejoined the rest of Canada by letting in a few MPs from the governing party. The NDP made gains throughout Canada. By any reasonable measure, this election has produced results which will (hopefully) ensure a more united Canada.

And if Harper turns out to be that bad....there's always 2015.

 

[Brandon716]

The NDP rally was about destroying the Bloc, and personally I think that's a big win for Canada.

And aside from some vote splitting, the Liberals destroyed themselves.

What was really destroyed last night were my chances for coming to Canada. The Conservatives have limited immigration significantly, but have used new category titles to cover it up and look like they are expanding it. I don't feel like getting into a full discussion again, but I'm going to try a new provincial immigration nomination program this year. If my application is denied this time I'm running out of options... And yes, despite Stephen Harper or Rob Ford, I still would like the chance to live in Toronto.

And as I stated in the first page, there are a lot of proud Liberal accomplishments to be on display. The mood of the country has changed because Stephen Harper has ran a 24/7 anti-Liberal, anti-progressive campaign since taking office. He attacked Ignatieff personally for two solid years. I agree that Ignatieff and Dion weren't the strongest Liberal candidates and since Chretien the party has been hurting to find a winning strategy, but that does not mean the party hasn't been effective for positive change.

For the record, in the last US election I voted a straight Green ticket here in both federal and state offices in 2010. I don't buy into the traditional US concept of governance and only two choices when those choices haven't delivered on key issues like true universal health care and gay rights (among many, many other issues), which is a small part of what I want to move (more of it is the urban culture and the amount of affordable condo life in Toronto). I support the Liberals largely because they've delivered on the goods in the past. Canada has a universal health system, Canada has made choices like staying out of Iraq, Canada has a lot of things that other nations do not because of the Liberal party... The NDP has formed provincial governments in the past, and most of those governments demonstrate leadership that isn't very different from the Liberal party. The Liberal party has moved to the right recently with Ignatieff, it had moved to the left with Dion on the Green Shift. So the Liberals tried two different radically different campaigns and lost them both, worst with the turn to the right with Ignatieff.

The NDP won it's power because of Quebec, and we'll see if that is sustainable. There is plenty of time for reflection. One thing I was telling a lot of my Liberal friends last night is that the silver lining in this election is that the Bloc has been defeated, although they were quick to remind me the PQ can still hold a referendum on the provincial level without a Bloc. The fact that Quebec shunned the Conservative party so strongly may mean that Harper will ignore the province. We shall see how this all works out.

 

[kEiThZ]

What was really destroyed last night were my chances for coming to Canada. The Conservatives have limited immigration significantly, but have used new category titles to cover it up and look like they are expanding it.

I am sick of this BS. I know I'm on Brandon's ignore list. But does anybody really have evidence of this supposed cover-up. To my knowledge, intake of immigrants has not declined. Can anybody explain where Brandon gets this crap?

For the record, in the last US election I voted a straight Green ticket here in both federal and state offices in 2010. I don't buy into the traditional US concept of governance and only two choices ...

Little does he know how much he has in common with me. LOL. I have voted Green federally for the last decade.

...when those choices haven't delivered on key issues like true universal health care and gay rights (among many, many other issues), which is a small part of what I want to move (more of it is the urban culture and the amount of affordable condo life in Toronto). I support the Liberals largely because they've delivered on the goods in the past. Canada has a universal health system, Canada has made choices like staying out of Iraq, Canada has a lot of things that other nations do not because of the Liberal party... The NDP has formed provincial governments in the past, and most of those governments demonstrate leadership that isn't very different from the Liberal party. The Liberal party has moved to the right recently with Ignatieff, it had moved to the left with Dion on the Green Shift. So the Liberals tried two different radically different campaigns and lost them both, worst with the turn to the right with Ignatieff.

And this here is what happens when you look at a situation with such bias (or rather outright hate for one side of the political spectrum). Ignatieff moved the Liberals to the right? REALLY??? Guess Iggy didn't get the memo.

And then there's the other credits to the Liberals. Iraq war. Sure. Universal health care...full credit to the Liberals? Tommy Douglas might have played some small role there.... Geez.