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Why stop globalization? Battle in Seattle

Arob

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Battle in Seattle is the Hollywood dramatization of the real 1999 WTO protests in Seattle. The movie stars Woody Harrelson, Ray Liotta, and Charlize Theron... Ray Liotta plays the mayor of Seattle perfectly desperate as the protests escalate into riots.

In December 1999 the media covered the protests against the World Trade Organization (WTO) meeting in Seattle, but most people had no idea... Joe public didn't know how big the rallies were, or even what the 40,000 demonstrators were protesting. Most North Americans still have no idea what the WTO is doing to the world.

As I watched this movie, which is excellent, I wondered if such a thing could ever happen here in Toronto, and then I remembered the riots of 1991? or was it the summer of 1992? Yes such a thing is very possible here.

Do you believe globalization should (can) be stopped? Do you believe violent protests are the way to send messages?

 
In December 1999 the media covered the protests against the World Trade Organization (WTO) meeting in Seattle, but most people had no idea... Joe public didn't know how big the rallies were, or even what the 40,000 demonstrators were protesting. Most North Americans still have no idea what the WTO is doing to the world.

As I watched this movie, which is excellent, I wondered if such a thing could ever happen here in Toronto, and then I remembered the riots of 1991? or was it the summer of 1992? Yes such a thing is very possible here.

Do you believe globalization should (can) be stopped? Do you believe violent protests are the way to send messages?

It was the aftermath of Rodney King. Not that the Toronto force doesn't have its own issues, but there was divisiveness on both sides back then and the root cause was a decision that originated in California. It was an outpouring of anger and I'm not sure I see a strong connection with organized (loosely or not) anti-WTO protests.

The pros and cons of globalization are a whole other issue but as far as the violent protests go, I don't see any benefit to them--the protesters aren't powerful enough to overturn the status quo and they have done nothing but alienate the rest of the population. They can't gain broad support and don't appear to desire it so their message has not stuck at all. I keep getting the impression they do things the way they do because they like to do it that way.

The movie seems like it might be worth a look.
 
Do you believe globalization should (can) be stopped? Do you believe violent protests are the way to send messages?

I have always found it ironic that Westerners who have benefited massively from freer trade complain the most about globalization. The hundreds of millions of Indians and Chinese who are being lifted out of poverty today by freer trade don't complain. They use the opportunity to work hard and rise from the bottom. I suspect what really scares many of these protesters is the fact that a global economy will require them to compete with people who do work incredibly hard....
 
You know what kEiThZ, you're a smart guy,

except,

1) the 3rd world nations of enslaved workers really don't have the instruments of protest (and the people of the 1st world barely have the tools as this movie shows...) to affect corporations (governments perhaps, but not multinationals).

2) We have benefited the most! and that's why its so horrible... I feel guilty. Don't you? And so not all North Americans wear fashion labels and buy 3rd World fetish objects and generally engage in modern consumerism - and there is now a growing 'buy local' shift happening right here in Toronto.

3) the Indians and Chinese as you put it are not 3rd world nations - the victims of the WTO are mostly in Africa and South Asia. These are the nations that get ignored by WTO which is pressured by big business hungry for consumer goods and unprotected markets.

4) and finally most protesters are very educated people who understand basic economic cause and effects without corporate branding - they have worked very hard in school to be able to rise above the ad copy and realize basic facts like ... well like.. Africa was a net food exporter before GATT.
 
1) the 3rd world nations of enslaved workers really don't have the instruments of protest (and the people of the 1st world barely have the tools as this movie shows...) to affect corporations (governments perhaps, but not multinationals).

I am not one for laissez-faire trade, but the third world can benefit from trade. If anything what has cost them, has been the fact that trade has been lopsided with the rules skewed to benefit the west. If we had truly free trade there would be a mass shift of industry eastward and their living standards would rise fairly rapidly from the onset of industrialization....at the expense of ours. Just talk to a mill worker in BC. Also, let's not ignore the role that corrupt governments in the third world play....particularly in Africa, where they squander billions in western aid. Nigeria is an excellent example. One would think that with the oil wealth they have, poverty would be below western levels. But a small elite decide to hoard the wealth. Another example of this is Sudan. Heck, even Saudi Arabia has incredible unemployment, because the Saudis put their funds into pumping out Islamic Studies graduates instead of scientists, engineers, doctors, and skilled tradespeople.

2) We have benefited the most! and that's why its so horrible... I feel guilty. Don't you? And so not all North Americans wear fashion labels and buy 3rd World fetish objects and generally engage in modern consumerism - and there is now a growing 'buy local' shift happening right here in Toronto.

If you feel guilty, do something about it. For me personally, I buy fair trade coffee and fair trade chocolate regularly. And I tend not to buy name brand fashions too often. I get much of my clothing tailor made in India or Hong Kong, which contributes to their economies, provides them with jobs and get's me a better product than I could ever afford here. But aside from that. What do you think would happen to the third world if this large 'buy local' movement succeeds? The very export income that these nations are relying on to help millions rise out of poverty would dry up. Let's take your guilt with fashions. Do you have any idea how many rural and poor Indians work in textile mills? Have you ever seen the pride they take in putting together a pair of jeans? Do you have any idea at how much money that job pays relative to the other meagre rural opportunities they have? It is one of the few industries that the Indian government has managed to successfully locate throughout the countryside. So guess who loses when you feel guilty and buy American Apparel instead. Gap loses profits, but those poor workers lose the funds to put food on the table. And you get to ease your conscience.

3) the Indians and Chinese as you put it are not 3rd world nations - the victims of the WTO are mostly in Africa and South Asia. These are the nations that get ignored by WTO which is pressured by big business hungry for consumer goods and unprotected markets.


Where by the way do you think India is? I remember something about it being in South Asia from grade school..... That the Indians and Chinese don't live in developing world nations would be news to the billions who don't live in the glittering cities of east and south asia. A colleague of mine who visited China on a diplomatic tour compared the seaboard to Europe and the interior to Africa. So don't be fooled by Beijing and Shanghai. There are millions who live in poverty in Xizang, Xinjiang, Qinghai, Sicuan, etc. India and China may be big, but that does not mean they're rich. Their rise in HDI has largely been in the last 10-15 years. And it's all come through industrialization and trade. It's amazing that you can't link all the goods produced for Walmart, with the hundreds of millions of Chinese now being pulled out of poverty. Can you explain how this happened? There's certainly been relatively little western aid to China. You should visit Guangdong to understand the full impact of globalization and the effect that trade has on eradicating poverty. Ask the millions and millions of folks what they did before the toy factories showed up. And ask them how they lived before they got their jobs. They may still be poor by our standards but when all you have is a thatched or clay roof and a hole in the ground for a toilet, sharing a company provided bachelor apartment with 6 others is relative luxury.

As for big business being the culprit. Sure, it's easy to blame them. But how come the multitude of developing nations courting FDI from these companies don't feel the same way? Because they look at Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, etc. and see what is possible. You want a trade success story that's still under way....Mexico. Look at the start of NAFTA and look where they are today. Just have a peek at the GDP, HDI, Gini numbers. And look at it over the time period.

4) and finally most protesters are very educated people who understand basic economic cause and effects without corporate branding - they have worked very hard in school to be able to rise above the ad copy and realize basic facts like ... well like.. Africa was a net food exporter before GATT.

Yes, the worked hard in school and have no experience living in the third world and certainly don't have relatives who live in slums today. Being born in India and having parents who grew up in poverty, I have a particular disdain for westerners who seem to know how to cure poverty better than the locals. And their excuse seems to be the same as yours, 'we read it in a book.' If I were cynical, I would say that most of these misguided protesters have as their sole goal, to keep the developing world for ever dependent on western aid. Thankfully, many in the world see western naivete for what it is, a new form of western imperialism from the left. Nobody in South Asia for example would support that idiot kid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Kielburger) who campaigned to end child poverty. Why? Because that 10 year old who activists use as a prop was probably helping feed a family of 8. You are going to send that 10 year old to school and make his family starve. That's the western band aid solution to problems.

In case you have not heard the new slogan is 'Trade not aid.' I invite you to come over and ask my folks if they would have ever wanted a handout as a poor Indian kid. You'd be surprised. My dad's next door neighbour who grew up studying under a street lamp went on to become a VP at Motorola for North America. And yet another neighbour came to Canada on a commonwealth scholarship, finished his PhD and served as a director for defence research. What they want over there is opportunity, not handouts. What will help the third world, is industry and jobs that put food on the table, not World Vision building a well in villages with good looking children.
 
we need trade, but we really need fair trade. look at food exports from South America. farmers in the south are making absolutely no money. they harvest just to stay alive, never mind any substantial wealth. The only reason are farmers in the West exist is because they are subsidized by government. We need fair trade, and we need more protests to support it.
We also need more awesome movies like Battle in Seattle. Ive been waiting for this flick for a long time. its been finished for 3 years now. I blame the Bush administration. they kept it from hitting theaters.
 
Most North Americans still have no idea what the WTO is doing to the world.

I've never understood the hatred toward the WTO. It's an organization which nation-states voluntarily become members of. You don't like their rules? Then drop out and make your own trade agreements. No country is forced to be a WTO member, they line up for it, for crying out loud.
 
we need trade, but we really need fair trade. look at food exports from South America. farmers in the south are making absolutely no money. they harvest just to stay alive, never mind any substantial wealth. The only reason are farmers in the West exist is because they are subsidized by government. We need fair trade, and we need more protests to support it.

It sounds as though you're arguing for more free trade here. And i agree with you. European farmers in particular, I don't even know why they bother growing food, they make a good enough living off all the money their governments throw at them to not have to work at all.

And I'm not trying to be cheeky here, but who decides what's "fair" in "fair trade"?
 
we need trade, but we really need fair trade. look at food exports from South America. farmers in the south are making absolutely no money. they harvest just to stay alive, never mind any substantial wealth. The only reason are farmers in the West exist is because they are subsidized by government. We need fair trade, and we need more protests to support it.

Food production in the west has a lot to do with food security and the sustainment of the rural way of life as it does about profit. It's highly unlikely any government would allow its food security to be left to the mercy of other countries, particularly third world ones. A good example of what can go wrong is the current tainted milk scandal in China and all their exports elsewhere in Asia.
 
Where by the way do you think India is?

I think people tend to differentiate China and India from the third world because they appear to be on a steady "rise" while places like say, Mongolia, Zimbabwe, etc, seem sort of stagnant. The three world model doesn't really make any sense. I would change it to first world = developed, second world = developing, and third world = shows little signs of development.
 
Take Cambodia off the list, they have made great progress - since the end of their civil wars (and colonial wars) - about 10 years now. They still have a fair distance to go to reach Thailands level - but they are not falling back - they are improving at a fairly fast pace.
 
I think people tend to differentiate China and India from the third world because they appear to be on a steady "rise" while places like say, Cambodia, Mongolia, Zimbabwe, etc, seem sort of stagnant. The three world model doesn't really make any sense. I would change it to first world = developed, second world = developing, and third world = shows little signs of development.

Fair enough. But to say that the rise of India and China makes them something other than developing nations is BS. The billions of rural Indians and Chinese certainly would agree that they live in a developing country. One cannot use Shanghai as a baseline for China's development. Yes, places like Shanghai and Bangalore are important to the West as gateways, but they are hardly representative of the lifestyle of most Indians and Chinese. If we are to argue about globalization then why should pity be reserved merely for African farmers and not the peasants in India and China?
 
How about pity for the peasants in Canada?

Yes, that person making minimum wage that served you your coffee this morning. Or unpacked skids of ipods in that unheated warehouse in Guelph. Or is serving as an Election's Canada polling officer this Tuesday for $10/hour with no breaks 14 hours straight for the public good. Are any of these folks getting "fair trade?"

Keithz, I agree with what your saying re: India vs. the Craig Kielburger's of the world. I have friends and relatives in India that would agree 100%.

(IMHO, Craig K ultimately was interested in promoting himself, I mean, he's certainly not starving....)
 
When talking about China and India the fact they have over a billion people each is why it gets confusing to call them developing.

Even though they have massive populations of middle class now, the fact is that still most people live in relatively 3rd world conditions.

China has a middle class that is larger than all of Canada's population, but that's just 35 million people out of over 1.3 billion.

The numbers just don't add up. And its important that Canada protect itself and retain manufacturing while still allowing free and fair trade. I don't think anyone believes in stopping trade.
 

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