Where's the federal public transit money?

[GraphicMatt]

Yet, how come nobody makes the same argument for the rest of Ontario sucking on Toronto's teat?

I think lots of people do. I certainly would.

The money that goes to the feds pays for federal services. And federal services tend to be unevenly distributed. Unless you want fighter bases in the 416, it's quite likely that the spending of federal dollars will always be uneven. Heck, we have also entrenched the uneven distribution of money through programs like the Health and Social transfers, equalization, the various regional economic/development/opportunities agencies, and policies on regional benefits for all major federal projects. It's not just transit. If we are going to discuss funding equality, we'll also have to start discussing our entire federal fiscal and economic framework.

I expect and even support the uneven distribution of federal dollars. It's how it should be.

But it's kind of silly to claim this is about limitation of federal powers or whatever. The federal government would be pledging billions of dollars to transit in Toronto if we had been awarded the Olympics. They could and have contributed. They just choose not to.

And I do plan on taking a stand on the tax issue. I will not vote for any candidate in the upcoming municipal election who pledges to lower taxes. The city can't afford it.

 

[waterloowarrior]

I think lots of people do. I certainly would.

I expect and even support the uneven distribution of federal dollars. It's how it should be.

But it's kind of silly to claim this is about limitation of federal powers or whatever. The federal government would be pledging billions of dollars to transit in Toronto if we had been awarded the Olympics. They could and have contributed. They just choose not to.

An Olympic line would be a local work that "although wholly situate[d] within the Province, [would be] before or after their Execution declared by the Parliament of Canada to be for the general Advantage of Canada"

Equalization is part of Canada's Constitution

"2) Parliament and the government of Canada are committed to the principle of making equalization payments to ensure that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public services at reasonably comparable levels of taxation."

 

[urbanfan89]

The money originally destined for building transit somehow ended up in Zurich or Bermuda bank accounts.

 

[GenerationW]

The Canadian federal government is very reluctant to fund public transit. Only recently it promised to pay about ⅓ of the $1 B cost of the Sheppard LRT. But very reluctantly. The province is paying the other ⅔.

Reluctantly? I've heard no one making that complaint. And there is no doubt that Adam Giambrone and mayor Miller are absolutely thrilled with the federal contribution to Sheppard, and neither has made any subsequent appeal for massive federal transit aid (unless one counts the bungled stimulus claim for streetcars).

Though according to this article, the feds are funding the following long-term projects:

• Up to a maximum of $133 million, toward the revitalization of Union Station;
• Up to a maximum of $333 million for the new Sheppard East Light Rail Transit Line;
• $350 million for the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) modernization and expansion of transit services;
• $385 million for the GO Rail and Bus Transit networks in the extended GTA

And with stimulus money, they are contributing $61 million to the following short-term transit projects:

# Wheel Trans Facility Renewal Public Transit
# Subway Escalator/Elevator Overhaul
# Warden Subway Station Redevelopment - Phase 1
# Birchmount Bus Garage Repair Bay Modifications
# Subway Track Renewal Public Transit Station modernization program Public Transit
# Bus Garage / Shops Facility Renewal Program
# Carhouse Modifications Public Transit
# Subway Carhouse /Shop/SRT* Facility Renewal Program
# TTC - On-Grade Paving Rehabilitation Program
# TTC - Easier Access Phase III Public Transit
# TTC - Structural Paving Rehabilitation
# TTC - Bridges/Structures Maintenance Program
# TTC - Bridge and Tunnels Public Transit
# TTC - Facilities Roofing Rehabilitation Program
# TTC - Streetcar Overhead Distribution System Upgrade
# TTC - Victoria Park Bus Terminal Replacement
# TTC - Kipling Station Improvements - East Entrance and Passenger Pick-up and Drop-Off (PPUDO)
# TTC - Streetcar Supporting Upgrade

I'm no rabid Harperite, but did Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien, or Martin do any better?

 

[DavidH]

Actually, it does. Transportation that does not cross provincial boundaries is the responsibility of the province.

To be specific, section 92 of the Constitution Act, 1867, provides for the following to be a provincial matter (there are others listed but this seems to be the relevant one):

. Local Works and Undertakings other than such as are of the following Classes:--

(a) Lines of Steam or other Ships, Railways, Canals, and other Works and Undertakings connecting the Province with any other or others of the Provinces, or extending beyond the Limits of the Province;

(b) Lines of Steam Ships between the Province and any British or Foreign Country;

(c) Such Works as, although wholly situate within the Province, are before or after the Execution declared by the Parliament of Canada to be for the general Advantage of Canada or for the Advantage of Two or more of the Provinces.

Having said that, the federal government does have general power to spend money in any area (the federal spending power), which allows the feds to fund transit projects if they choose. It's just that there is nothing that *requires* them to do so.

As others have said here, the real issue is idological. Not only is the current government not a general proponent of better public transit, but they also want the federal government to "stick to its knitting", so to speak, and stay out of areas of provincial jurisdiction.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ And the political reality is that they can't just spend on Toronto. Any transit infrastructure program would have to be a national program providing equal (or perceived as equal) funding to every major urban area in the country. This would quickly become a massive federal commitment either requiring cuts elsewhere in the federal portfolio or new revenues.

I am not saying it's not a worthwhile cause but those asking for federal intervention in local infrastructure need to understand the politics and realities of such actions for the feds. Unless we get the Olympics, those dollars will be spread out amongst everybody not just us. This means the handful of buses that drive around Moose Jaw are going to be equally eligible for transit funding as Toronto's subways.

Before pressing the feds, however, Torontonians should really be pressing the Province to do even more. MO2020 and Metrolinx in no way makes up for the decades of underinvestment by the province in this city and region's infrastructure. It's only when the province feels the heat and passes it up the food chain that the feds will be prompted to do something.

 

[rbt]

Yet, how come nobody makes the same argument for the rest of Ontario sucking on Toronto's teat?

Hard argument to make. A majority of the population of Ontario is now covered within Toronto's economic zone and I'm not sure Ottawa, the largest area outside of it, is a significant sink. I'm also unaware of London or Southern Ontario outside the GTA as a whole being a significant sink -- more or less at par. That leaves eastern Ontario, perhaps without Kingston which may pull its own weight, and Northern Ontario which has a trivial population to support.

Even up to $30,000 per capita (estimate from long ago adjusted with inflation for Northern Ontario) rounds out of the provinces budget; and part of that is credits from the federal level.


In short, it probably was true at some point in the past (70's and 80's?) but
is no longer the case. It often takes longer than a generation for these concepts about a place to change in society as a whole. Heck,


Long ago people were demanding a Province of Toronto. We essentially have that today and most certainly will in 2031. Even Harris catered primarily to Toronto; he just focused on the outskirts which the inner core wasn't terribly fond of and didn't really agree with.

 

[Justin10000]

Every developed country(including the US) has some sort of national transit strategy in place. The reality is, we have a government that is following ideology rather than doing what is best for the country. That provinces should step up is BS.
The federal government has a responsibilty to make sure this country runs smmothly, and not to follow some silly political ideology.

 

[TOareaFan]

Every developed country(including the US) has some sort of national transit strategy in place. The reality is, we have a government that is following ideology rather than doing what is best for the country. That provinces should step up is BS.
The federal government has a responsibilty to make sure this country runs smmothly, and not to follow some silly political ideology.

As someone else pointed out....if it is "ideology" we really should have examples of previous PMs or governments that had expressed a different ideology with a significantly different level of transit funding?

Cities are creations of the provinces, it is provincial legislation that governs cities.

It is all fine to say things (paraphrasing some people here) like "don't hide behind the constitition. even if it is a provincial matter it affects how the country works and, therefore, the feds should intervene in this provincial area for the good of the nation".......but ya gotta admit, once you do that you really invite the feds to make judgement calls about division of duties contained within the constitution and you would have a hard time telling any future federal government to "butt out" if they started messing with other areas of provincial responsibility (education, health ?).

Because we in Ontario have neglected our transit needs for so long, a crisis is in front of us. I don't think that this alone justifies scrapping the constitution just to get funding.....no matter how convenient it may seem.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I'd hate for the feds to start dictating municipal transit policies specifically (ie "build this line here using this technology") - I'd only advocate for more general funding for cities from the federal government in a general sense.

As for precedent, Paul Martin's Liberals were going down a city-friendly road with the New Deal for Cities until that government was defeated.

 

[Justin10000]

As someone else pointed out....if it is "ideology" we really should have examples of previous PMs or governments that had expressed a different ideology with a significantly different level of transit funding?

Cities are creations of the provinces, it is provincial legislation that governs cities.

It is all fine to say things (paraphrasing some people here) like "don't hide behind the constitition. even if it is a provincial matter it affects how the country works and, therefore, the feds should intervene in this provincial area for the good of the nation".......but ya gotta admit, once you do that you really invite the feds to make judgement calls about division of duties contained within the constitution and you would have a hard time telling any future federal government to "butt out" if they started messing with other areas of provincial responsibility (education, health ?).

Because we in Ontario have neglected our transit needs for so long, a crisis is in front of us. I don't think that this alone justifies scrapping the constitution just to get funding.....no matter how convenient it may seem.

The constituion has nothing to do with it. It has already been pointed out.
Like DavidH said, the federal government has the power to provide funding.
You do not need the constitution to provide a national transit strategy. Do you need the constitution for government of all levels to talk to each other, and set guideline on how the money can be collected, distributed, etc? No.
It's ideology that is keeping Harper, and previous government from talking to the provinces.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'd hate for the feds to start dictating municipal transit policies specifically (ie "build this line here using this technology") - I'd only advocate for more general funding for cities from the federal government in a general sense.

As for precedent, Paul Martin's Liberals were going down a city-friendly road with the New Deal for Cities until that government was defeated.

And apparently the public didn't think it was a big enough deal to preserve the Martin government.

Keep in mind that if you accept federal dollars there are bound to be federal conditions. Do you really think that the feds will provide funding without strings attached? And legally speaking, federal dollars over a certain amount are required to demonstrate industrial and regional benefits in-line with standing federal policies. You can bet that if the feds start paying more for Toronto's subways that Toronto will have to make sure that every province in the country gets some subcontracting work.

 

[kEiThZ]

The constituion has nothing to do with it. It has already been pointed out.
Like DavidH said, the federal government has the power to provide funding.
You do not need the constitution to provide a national transit strategy. Do you need the constitution for government of all levels to talk to each other, and set guideline on how the money can be collected, distributed, etc? No.
It's ideology that is keeping Harper, and previous government from talking to the provinces.

It's quite easy to blame Harper. Again, where's your proof that other Prime Ministers have acted differently? Chretien was in power for a decade. Where was his national transit strategy? Mulroney is widely considered one of the greenest PMs in history. Where was his national transit strategy?

I might agree that this PM is a little less inclined to fund transit at the national level, but let's not pretend that he is some kind of grand exception.

Finally, please explain where you would find the billions to fund a national transit strategy. What programs would you cut or what taxes would you raise to pay for it? It's incumbent upon anyone proposing a huge increase in public spending to say where the money would come from. Otherwise, you are no different than those who just want tax cuts but never talk about the impact of those cuts.

 

[kEiThZ]

The only realistic way I see for a national transit strategy to fall into place is for cities to start pressuring the provinces. Right now, I see some reluctance on the part of cities to target their prime patrons. The feds make an easy target. All the more so with a Conservative government. However, it's really the provinces who should be speaking up and working together (with the feds) to craft a national transit strategy. Expecting the federal government to impose a strategy, top-down, with full funding, no strings attached, that meets every cities needs, is incredibly naive.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's ideology that is keeping Harper, and previous government from talking to the provinces.

No. It probably has something to do with the fact that the provinces quite often can't agree with each other with only one exception: they all agree they want the feds to hand over the cash without any conditions.

Liberal or Conservative. There is no PM that would agree to that. I would not expect things to change dramatically even if Iggy took over tomorrow.