News   Jul 12, 2024
199 Church Showcases Heritage Facade and Artwork at Street Level
 990     0 
News   Jul 12, 2024
Six Points Plaza Redevelopment Advances With 36-Storey First Phase
 859     0 
News   Jul 12, 2024
Trading Spaces: Can Real Estate Conversion Help Boost Housing Supply?
 348     0 

When will the market recover?

I've never used an agent as I have the time to do the work myself - and it's never been much work but with this new high end stock, I might reconsider as many of your potential clients simply don't have the time or even care to surf CL instead of using an agent.

Considering it's a luxury property and that 1100 sq ft for a 1+ is very large I would think that nothing under $3500 would suffice - especially if it's furnished. The people renting this kind of stock make that in 1/2 a day so it's really not much to them - or better yet, their company is paying. In either case it's deductible. This is another reason why I like furnished high end. Most people who rent for a year aren't able to deduct it so $1500/mth is $1500. When you get 50%+ back based on your deductions that $3500 really only costs $1750 and for every $1 increase it's still only 1/2 the cost to them. If you're on a higher floor with a clear view I'd push the envelope as high as you can. This type of rental market is completely untested in Toronto as there is no product quite like it right now. That being said, you clearly know what you're doing 'interested' and I'm sure you'll do your homework and take advantage of the fact that the Ritz will be finished 2 years ahead of you. What units go for in this building should give you an indication.

Nice buy btw. I wish I had the capital to have bought there. I tried to get my bro (who's one of the above type of people) to buy at SL but he's a wimp when it comes to risk. Dummy. :)
 
interested said:
Tough to argue with the logic you posed here.

And $300/hour is about $299 more/hour than I make so maybe I should do this. How do you get your renters. Do you list with MLS and agents or use Craig's list or Kijiji or equivalent?

Out of curiousity, when the Shangrila is ready, if I decide not use it personally, I would furnish this as this would be a luxury rental. What do you think one would get for an 1100 sq. ft. 1 bedroom/den with 1 and 1/2 baths, parking, locker and a 200 sq. ft west facing balcony/terrace? Minimum period would have to be 6 months rental.
Click to expand...

wild guess ... $4,000/m
 
Thanks for the advise guys.

Simuls, I don't know if your brother was "dumb" or not. I would not be overlys suprised that he may well be able to buy a resale a close to what I paid 3 years ago.

The agent at Shangrila thought we could get $4-$4.50/sq.ft. or $4500-5000/month range. For an exec rental, I would definately use a real estate agent for exactly the reasons you suggested. It will likely be a corporate relocation and I don't know that they read Craig's list or Kijiji etc.

Looking at what Ritz asks/gets should provide a good idea but units there are larger (I believe 1500 sq. ft and up). THanks for the suggestion.

I think that $4500 to 5000 may be pushing it. I looked at Minto Yorkville (different location: hi end rentals) and 1 bedroom / dens don't go this high but are600-700 sq. ft. and don't know if it will compare to SL. 2 bedrooms seem to be at about the $7000 for 1600 sq. ft (vs. my 1100 sq. ft) but I do have that large terrace. Floor is in the mid 20's. Will have a pretty clear view though to my right I will see the 35 story Boutique 2. The Southern end of Boutique 2 will line up to my most Northerly West Faceing Window but about 100 feet away.

Finally, I hope $3500 is below what it will get since condo fees/taxes will be about $1600/sq. ft. I personally had guessed $3500 to 4000 and thought the agent may have been wishful, however, as you say, it is untested and there will be alot more competing product when ready.

Anyhow, I may just be keeping it for family/personal use but interesting to know one's options.
 
When the Ritz first started selling they had 1 bed units around 600 sq feet, so not all the units are large. Prices for Ritz started at $600 000 if I recall correctly.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if you could get $4500, but it's true that there will be 4 competing building with 3 of them within a very short distance and all servicing essentially the same demo. It will be very very interesting to see how the Toronto market adapts to a couple thousand ultra high end units when it has no stock of this type anywhere (Minto Yorkville is a joke in comparison). It might be sucked up super fast, or it might drop. Luxury usually gets hit hardest if the economy is in the tank (but also the first to rise).
 
I have been getting $3150 for an 1100 sqft, 2 bath, 2 bedroom, South-West 27th floor view unit at Radio City for the last 4 years. It was an executive rental where the tenant's company paid.

So you should be getting closer to $4000....
 
If Minto Yorkville is a joke in comparison, they have for $2700/month a 1 bedroom den with 805 sq. ft. Parking is $300. So $3000 for 805 sq. ft. So, I guess $4000 would be reasonable in comparison. I don't know but I was under the impression Minto was a luxury rental at least in Yorkville.
Simuls, I agree with your comment that luxury gets hit hardest if the economy will"tank".
Roy, you have a 2 bedroom and 2 bedroom and that commands more than 1 bedroom den same size. That said, Radio City is not the Shangrila. My suspicion is that 800 sq. ft in SL will be the main rental supply. There are 1 bedroom units at 800 sq. ft. and I think these will be the mainly investor units. there are 2 bedrooms 2 bathroom with East exposure which were about the same price (slightly more) as my 1 bedroom den but they have 100 ft of balcony vs. 200 sq. ft. terrace/balcony and we face west vs. east which I think is a bit more desirable but the 2 bedroom will fetch quite a bit more. That said, there is only 1 bank of my unit or 30 condos vs. 2 banks or 60 each of the other 2 units. As well, initially the 1 bedroom den was offered with only 1 bathroom (huge at 8 and 1/2 x 11 sq. ft) but only now are they offering 1 and 1/2 bathrooms. I actually was allowed a 1 and 1/2 bathroom (powder room 3 and 1/2 by 8 feet and master 8 x 8 1/2 sq. ft). So only purchasers who now buy (at $1150/sq. ft and up will have this option). My point is that if I rent, I will have the only 1 bedroom, 1 and 1/2 bath unit available who paid $850/ sq. ft vs. $1150 so I don't think there will be alot of these units available.The 2 bedroom unit also has 2 and 1/2 baths vs. my unit with 1 and 1/2. However, again at Minto, they are asking around. $7000 a month but this is for a larger unit (2 bedrooms) and when one corrects the price / foot range from $3.25 to about $4
 
simuls said:
This type of rental market is completely untested in Toronto as there is no product quite like it right now.
Click to expand...


There's no product because there is virtually no demand. When high end product meets tepid high end rental demand you can figure out the end result- very high vacancy, severely reduced rates, high turnover, commissions, etc.
 
CN tower, you may well be right. There may be no demand or perhaps demand will materialize now that product exists.
Anectdotally, one hears of alot of people selling homes and electing to rent waiting a price correction. I don't know if that is true but if so, should spur some demand. Will it be the high end demand: I don't know.
In any event, I am just trying to inform myself. As I have said, I just want to know my options in the event that we choose not to use the investment for personal/family use.
thanks everyone for their thoughts.
I guess we can let the forum go back more to its topic.
 
Do you really think this is the "straw that breaks the camel's back" in the decision to buy or not buy. I think it is an annoyance but just gets factored into the final price and a decision made based on absolute dollars. I don't think the City land transfer tax will make alot of difference except to perhaps entry level properties. Not that I support the tax.
 
We have it very lucky here in Toronto.
I just moved back from the U.S. and it is really depressing there in terms of the economy south of the border. Sales and prices of homes are still down a lot these past few years (and I am not just talking about Florida, Arizona and Nevada), foreclosures are still commonplace, unemployment still high, and their privatized healthcare system is putting a real strain on people's finances (even those with health insurance). The fears of a double dip recession is getting stronger almost everyday it seems.
I still own my loft in Denver and intend on selling it at a profit, however when there are a couple units in the same building languishing on the market for almost a year selling at a loss (and other condos selling at big bigger losses), I had no choice but to rent it out until the market improves.

We do have a consistant growing population, a good amount of commerce, banking system/regulations that the U.S. should learn from, and one of the most stable economies in the world which are attracting foreign investors, so things are still relatively good for us here.
Sure things have slowed down, but we are not exactly in a depressed economy compared to U.S. and Europe. For the longest time Canada has always followed the U.S. economy, but it speaks volumes when we have bucked that trend. It's a matter of time when the U.S. and European economies rebound and when it does it will most likely strengthen our economy even more.
 
Last edited:
neuhaus said:
We have it very lucky here in Toronto.
I just moved back from the U.S. and it is really depressing there in terms of the economy south of the border. Sales and prices of homes are still down a lot these past few years (and I am not just talking about Florida, Arizona and Nevada), foreclosures are still commonplace, unemployment still high, and their privatized healthcare system is putting a real strain on people's finances (even those with health insurance). The fears of a double dip recession is getting stronger almost everyday it seems.
I still own my loft in Denver and intend on selling it at a profit, however when there are a couple units in the same building languishing on the market for almost a year selling at a loss (and other condos selling at big bigger losses), I had no choice but to rent it out until the market improves.

We do have a consistant growing population, a good amount of commerce, banking system/regulations that the U.S. should learn from, and one of the most stable economies in the country which are attracting foreign investors, so things are still relatively good for us here.
Sure things have slowed down, but we are not exactly in a depressed economy compared to U.S. and Europe. For the longest time Canada has always followed the U.S. economy, but it speaks volumes when we have bucked that trend. It's a matter of time when the U.S. and European economies rebound and when it does it will most likely strengthen our economy even more.
Click to expand...

Neuhaus, I hope you are right. We have bucked the trend essentially until now but one has to wonder if that can keep happening. Add that China is now becoming questionable as far as sustainable growth (at least at the levels seen in the last few years) and one has to question somewhat how it is that we in fact continue to skirt this issue.

As you say, let's hope that the other economies rebound soon because the longer it takes, I believe the more the likihood that we will follow the other economies downward.
 
China is trying to keep its economy from going out of control by reducing speculators and enforcing building moratoriums on investment, secondary and vacation properties, and in certain area. I don't know if that is doing enough though.
Here, the introduction of PST on real estate and the rising interest rates are also taming our recent hot market, which I don't think is a bad thing.

This changing economy will hopefully weed out the greedy speculators from the smart buyers. What Toronto needs right now is more affordable housing and I think this is a good time to do it.
 
Agreed. I would rather see a few years of no growth and then steady appreciation than further rapid ascent followed by an inevitable correction.

If it is truly different this time (which I shudder when I hear people saying this) and Toronto is now suddenly going to finally become the "world class center" some feel it is but yet has to be proven, then the gains will prove sustainable, but this is a very big "if".

More affordable housing will only occur if governments spend tax dollars on it. The core is simply too attractive to developers who can make much more money building "luxury" and asking inflated prices for it. Much much higher margins.
 
I would have to believe that home swapping even if up 32% would still be a small % of total sales. As well, this data is talking up to April of 2010 I presume and the Canadian situation until then was different than it has been the past 4 months. I don't know about England and if London is the same or different. Finally, cheap money once again as this portion of the article says is what is driving the market. Buyers getting nothing on their money are putting it into real estate.
The same concerns I expressed on other posts: in particular "baby, we got a bubble" What happens if/when interest rates invariably go up? Will a significant amount of this money then leave the property market?

Mods, should this thread possibly be merged with the "baby, we got a bubble" thread?
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top