Waterworks (MOD Developments) - Real Estate -

Pink Uranus said:
Just had my PDI on Monday. Suppose to take interim occupancy tomorrow. I am extremely unhappy with the state that my unit is in. I would be patient with this but there is no communication from client care. They also gave me such a short period between PDI and Occupancy. I have issue that can not be addressed after I take occupancy. I had very urgent quires that need dealing with. They should change their name to client lack of care and ambivalence. Also I am not happy with Miller Thompson. Who sends faxes these days?
My best advice is be aggressive. They obviously only care about squeaky wheels!
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We just our PDI yesterday and it was generally pretty poor - we had many issues that I can't imagine will be resolved in 5 days before occupancy. Infuriating....
 
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Did anyone get the Miele appliance upgrade? and does it include the washer / dryer? They had only put in Miele stove and fridge in the PDI
 
I got the Miele appliance upgrade. It includes your fridge, stove and dishwasher. The washer/dryer is a Blomberg.
 
Just got a heads up from Heather Arruda at Dentons that they anticipate they will be registering the building in a couple of days.
 
Natnook said:
Here you go - a little confusing.
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I think I replied to that email but it bounced for me. All I know is it seems very rude to me to send a fax to my lawyers that cite email links without sending an email. Still I would be shocked if they announce tomorrow or Thursday that the building is registered. I don't feel like I am being dealt with honestly.
 
Fad225 said:
Did you hear anything new about the building registering since last week?
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No I didn't hear anything. I just jumped through a ridiculous number of hoops to get my financing ready. Still my BS detector is going off. The way the building is, I can't see how they are going to register any time soon. Funny how no one knows on what basis registration takes place. It isn't exactly a transparent process. Again, if I were to bet, my bet is still next year.
 
Pink Uranus said:
No I didn't hear anything. I just jumped through a ridiculous number of hoops to get my financing ready. Still my BS detector is going off. The way the building is, I can't see how they are going to register any time soon. Funny how no one knows on what basis registration takes place. It isn't exactly a transparent process. Again, if I were to bet, my bet is still next year.
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The Registration issue has been addressed (by me) a number of times on various UT threads - to the point where a stock response has been offered for UT to use.

From a former comment: - yet again another question, this time in the 488 University thread, about when condominium purchase closing takes place. Perhaps UT could either have an FAQ section, pinned to the Buildings forum, which provides some insight on the process.

Registration is not dependent on the state of building completion. Closings can only take place after registration of the condominium corporation, which in turn is dependent on completion by the Declarant (developer) of all the required paperwork, and its acceptance by the City. Registration does not depend on any particular level of occupancy - in fact registration does not even need for the building to start occupancy (e.g. the Berczy). If the paperwork drags out - as has happened in rare circumstances, closings can be delayed for quite an extended timeframe.

Registration is a very straightforward and well documented process. It is visibility into the status of the various stages or preparing and submitting the documentation to the City, and its review within the City's departments that is not great.
 
AHK said:
The Registration issue has been addressed (by me) a number of times on various UT threads - to the point where a stock response has been offered for UT to use.

From a former comment: - yet again another question, this time in the 488 University thread, about when condominium purchase closing takes place. Perhaps UT could either have an FAQ section, pinned to the Buildings forum, which provides some insight on the process.

Registration is not dependent on the state of building completion. Closings can only take place after registration of the condominium corporation, which in turn is dependent on completion by the Declarant (developer) of all the required paperwork, and its acceptance by the City. Registration does not depend on any particular level of occupancy - in fact registration does not even need for the building to start occupancy (e.g. the Berczy). If the paperwork drags out - as has happened in rare circumstances, closings can be delayed for quite an extended timeframe.

Registration is a very straightforward and well documented process. It is visibility into the status of the various stages or preparing and submitting the documentation to the City, and its review within the City's departments that is not great.
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Hi AHK,
I appreciate the response. I understand that The issue isn't about occupancy. We agree on that.

Perhaps I am being thick but this doesn't clear up any of the misconceptions that I might have. Some of what you wrote just doesn't make sense. Please let me explore some of these inconsistencies. First, if registration is completely independent of completion then why wouldn't the developer register when the ground is broken and construction starts? Also why is the Tarion warranty tied to registration? Some on this forum have said this is completely independent of registration which is plainly false.

What do you mean by paperwork dragging out? What drags out paper work in this case? In your post on 488 University, you talk very briefly about the creation of the condo corporation. Clearly the condo corporation is created in order to transfer title but surely title must be commensurate with the completion of the buildings common areas at the very least or the title would be for some fictitious things.
This sounds to me like a giant can of lack of transparency worms.
If you think it is a straightforward and well documented process perhaps you might be able to share where you found this process well documented. I haven't found it and I have been searching for some little time now.
As you say there is a problem of having documentation (what this documentation says or does is a mystery to me) reviewed by the city but THAT is precisely the issue isn't it? If there is a back log of files then that is predicable. If it is tied to some sort of work permit thing that is predicable. If it is tied to an inability to properly transfer title for what ever reason then the remedy to that should be predictable.

Some properties take a long time to register some properties take a short time. Why?

Again I received a notification via fax via my lawyer saying on the 17th that registration would happen in a couple of days. Here it is the 30th. That screams lack of transparency.
This is the deal, we all had to jump to attention to get our mortgages all lined up and ready for closing. These approvals generally are only good for 90 days. Having a general idea of at least the quarter we can expect registration would be very helpful. Anything short of that demonstrates a lack of transparency.
 
Pink Uranus said:
Hi AHK,
I appreciate the response. I understand that The issue isn't about occupancy. We agree on that.

Perhaps I am being thick but this doesn't clear up any of the misconceptions that I might have. Some of what you wrote just doesn't make sense. Please let me explore some of these inconsistencies. First, if registration is completely independent of completion then why wouldn't the developer register when the ground is broken and construction starts? Also why is the Tarion warranty tied to registration? Some on this forum have said this is completely independent of registration which is plainly false.

What do you mean by paperwork dragging out? What drags out paper work in this case? In your post on 488 University, you talk very briefly about the creation of the condo corporation. Clearly the condo corporation is created in order to transfer title but surely title must be commensurate with the completion of the buildings common areas at the very least or the title would be for some fictitious things.
This sounds to me like a giant can of lack of transparency worms.
If you think it is a straightforward and well documented process perhaps you might be able to share where you found this process well documented. I haven't found it and I have been searching for some little time now.
As you say there is a problem of having documentation (what this documentation says or does is a mystery to me) reviewed by the city but THAT is precisely the issue isn't it? If there is a back log of files then that is predicable. If it is tied to some sort of work permit thing that is predicable. If it is tied to an inability to properly transfer title for what ever reason then the remedy to that should be predictable.

Some properties take a long time to register some properties take a short time. Why?

Again I received a notification via fax via my lawyer saying on the 17th that registration would happen in a couple of days. Here it is the 30th. That screams lack of transparency.
This is the deal, we all had to jump to attention to get our mortgages all lined up and ready for closing. These approvals generally are only good for 90 days. Having a general idea of at least the quarter we can expect registration would be very helpful. Anything short of that demonstrates a lack of transparency.
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I guess the lack of a single standard definition for the term 'completion' is part of the problem. Buildings may meet agreed criteria to be 'substantially complete' from a contract perspective, triggering payment obligations between the parties - yet still have material amounts of work tob e done. In a condominium building, items such as amenity areas, final finishes in lobbies and corridors, missing items in units, and so on will not stop a building from receiving occupancy permits or being occupied. I was using the word 'complete' in a general sense - the City does not decide when a builder has met all the requirements to have a fully completed, no items remaining status for the building, and does not take that into consideration for registration. The focus for the City would be on approvals and completion of requirements over which it has authority - site plan approval, meeting conditions stipulated in the various permits and permissions issued and granted by the City.

The condominium corporation is created when the City files the necessary registration documents on the Ontario Land Registry system , which causes the individual physical condominium units in the building to become separately titled entities within the land registry system, with the ability of the titles to be transferred to the new owners on closing. Absolutely nothing to do with completion of the common areas - the amenities, finishes in the lobbies and corridors and so on. The title is for the unit, and as a condominium, includes its proportionate share in the condominium corporation's assets (and obligations), including its common elements and amenities.

Toronto has registered thousands of condominium corporations over the years - obviously, they have defined procedures, internal checklists, of what must be in place for the entry to be set up in the land registry system. It is up to the developer to prepare, submit, and revise where necessary, all the documentation required by the City. Does the City have an openly published list of what these requirements are - that I do not know. If there is a list, it may be either within the City's legal procedures and regulations - possibly in several places, or it is in internal development industry papers.

I think the bigger issue is that neither party - the developer or the City - can predict or control how long the other party will take to complete all its outstanding issues and requirements for the registration to proceed. Without that knowledge, neither party is willing to make any commitments in advance on when the registration will take place - hence leading to the situation in which purchasers are left hanging.

As to why some properties register more quickly than others - developer experience would be a major factor. Also, a greenfield project would be a lot more straight forward than one in which the developer had to go through hoops to get approval in the first place. Incorporation of pre-existing structures - whether historic buildings in part, or conversions of office buildings or churches, or other commitments to the City for approval to build (e.g. replacement of former rental units on the site).

The above was written without thinking about which building you are in - just looked at the thread title - the Waterworks building. Oh my. This site has amongst the most potential complicating factors for approval around. Be thankful that it is a Mod project - Mod has experience handling complex sites. In the hands of a developer without such experience, it could be a much different situation.
 
AHK said:
I guess the lack of a single standard definition for the term 'completion' is part of the problem. Buildings may meet agreed criteria to be 'substantially complete' from a contract perspective, triggering payment obligations between the parties - yet still have material amounts of work tob e done. In a condominium building, items such as amenity areas, final finishes in lobbies and corridors, missing items in units, and so on will not stop a building from receiving occupancy permits or being occupied. I was using the word 'complete' in a general sense - the City does not decide when a builder has met all the requirements to have a fully completed, no items remaining status for the building, and does not take that into consideration for registration. The focus for the City would be on approvals and completion of requirements over which it has authority - site plan approval, meeting conditions stipulated in the various permits and permissions issued and granted by the City.

The condominium corporation is created when the City files the necessary registration documents on the Ontario Land Registry system , which causes the individual physical condominium units in the building to become separately titled entities within the land registry system, with the ability of the titles to be transferred to the new owners on closing. Absolutely nothing to do with completion of the common areas - the amenities, finishes in the lobbies and corridors and so on. The title is for the unit, and as a condominium, includes its proportionate share in the condominium corporation's assets (and obligations), including its common elements and amenities.

Toronto has registered thousands of condominium corporations over the years - obviously, they have defined procedures, internal checklists, of what must be in place for the entry to be set up in the land registry system. It is up to the developer to prepare, submit, and revise where necessary, all the documentation required by the City. Does the City have an openly published list of what these requirements are - that I do not know. If there is a list, it may be either within the City's legal procedures and regulations - possibly in several places, or it is in internal development industry papers.

I think the bigger issue is that neither party - the developer or the City - can predict or control how long the other party will take to complete all its outstanding issues and requirements for the registration to proceed. Without that knowledge, neither party is willing to make any commitments in advance on when the registration will take place - hence leading to the situation in which purchasers are left hanging.

As to why some properties register more quickly than others - developer experience would be a major factor. Also, a greenfield project would be a lot more straight forward than one in which the developer had to go through hoops to get approval in the first place. Incorporation of pre-existing structures - whether historic buildings in part, or conversions of office buildings or churches, or other commitments to the City for approval to build (e.g. replacement of former rental units on the site).

The above was written without thinking about which building you are in - just looked at the thread title - the Waterworks building. Oh my. This site has amongst the most potential complicating factors for approval around. Be thankful that it is a Mod project - Mod has experience handling complex sites. In the hands of a developer without such experience, it could be a much different situation.
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AHK,
Great response. Thank you.
 
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