Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)

[hw621]

Sure - but the bells/lights weren't required for pedestrian crossing before the Ion cars started to run.

It seems odd and unnecessarily bureaucratic to apply the rules which only seems to be triggered by the Ion frequency, when those are temporally separated. One can ask for exemptions.

Was that a statement or a question? I'd assume that this bell ringing and lights thing was only on the shared piece from near King/Erb to Northfield. It doesn't really roll down residential streets like King Street (and Charles and Duke, Ottawa, etc.) with bells and lights at every intersection does it? That would get old fast ...

What about driveways?

View attachment 189279

Good luck backing out of that driveway...

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Sure - but the bells/lights weren't required for pedestrian crossing before the Ion cars started to run.

It seems odd and unnecessarily bureaucratic to apply the rules which only seems to be triggered by the Ion frequency, when those are temporally separated. One can ask for exemptions.

Was that a statement or a question? I'd assume that this bell ringing and lights thing was only on the shared piece from near King/Erb to Northfield. It doesn't really roll down residential streets like King Street (and Charles and Duke, Ottawa, etc.) with bells and lights at every intersection does it? That would get old fast ...

What about driveways?

View attachment 189279

On-street sections using embedded track are speed restricted which reduce the regulated access control requirements. The ballasted track segments are less speed restricted and hence require stricter access control. The crossings previous to ION construction work were grandfathered under older regulations that weren't as strict. Now that significant redesign of the corridor was performed those crossings must comply with current regulations.

 

[nfitz]

ION isn't classified as a streetcar.

I believe it is under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act.

It's certainly not a train ... which is normally defined as "a series of railroad cars" - and I don't think they are planning anyone multi-car operations (which would require more than 14 cars wouldn't it?). It's a car. It's a rail vehicle. I think the legal term federally is "railway equipment ".

On-street sections using embedded track are speed restricted which reduce the regulated access control requirements. The ballasted track segments are less speed restricted and hence require stricter access control. The crossings previous to ION construction work were grandfathered under older regulations that weren't as strict. Now that significant redesign of the corridor was performed those crossings must comply with current regulations.

Ah ... and this is a new pedestrian crossing.

Is it only the new crossing that got all the ... uh ... bells and whistles? What about Old Albert (for example) - nothing has changed there, other than the second track.

 

[KevinT]

It's certainly not a train ... which is normally defined as "a series of railroad cars" - and I don't think they are planning anyone multi-car operations (which would require more than 14 cars wouldn't it?). It's a car. It's a rail vehicle. I think the legal term federally is "railway equipment ".

All of the platforms and electrification systems were built to handle paired vehicles in the future as demand increases, with paired vehicle testing having already taken place as part of the system commissioning.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

I believe it is under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act.

It's certainly not a train ... which is normally defined as "a series of railroad cars" - and I don't think they are planning anyone multi-car operations (which would require more than 14 cars wouldn't it?). It's a car. It's a rail vehicle. I think the legal term federally is "railway equipment ".

It is not classified as such under the Highway Traffic Act and can't be classified as such under HTA because the technical design and intended use of the system and vehicles doesn't meet the technical definition of a streetcar. Light Rail itself meets the definition of a train because:

"A train can consist of a combination of one or more locomotives and attached railroad cars, or a self-propelled multiple unit, or occasionally a single or articulated powered coach called a railcar."

 

[KevinT]

So where's the vehicle crossing? That wasn't there a few months ago.

Here's the way the R&T Park stop is configured:

The crossing signals are activated independently, the north end by traffic on the northbound track and and the south end by traffic on the southbound track. Only the southbound track is shared with heavy rail, in fact you can see that in the spacing of the railroad ties, but I believe that due to the fact it's a heavy rail corridor overall they had to signalize both tracks the way that they did. All the pedestrian grade crossings that aren't at a platform also have a gate, and all crossings use the same bells, lights, and gate mechanisms that the full road crossings use. I'd like to think that was just an economic decision, but maybe Transport Canada pushed that down on them too. None of the on-street rights of way use bells and signals, relying instead on traffic lights and large light-up No Right / No Left / Train signs to restrict vehicular traffic, while the trains get the white vertical and horizontal bar signals to let them know when it's their turn through an intersection.

 

[nfitz]

It is not classified as such under the Highway Traffic Act and can't be classified as such under HTA because the technical design and intended use of the system and vehicles doesn't meet the technical definition of a streetcar. Light Rail itself meets the definition of a train because:

uh ... surely the HTA applies when those cars are going down (for example) King Street. I just checked the property maps, and the entire width of King Street (a highway) is not subdivided. A streetcar (actually "street car" in the Act) is defined simply as "includes a car of an electric or steam railway; (“tramway”)". How is the ION LRV not legally a streetcar when going down King Street?

Here's the way the R&T Park stop is configured:

Wow, great photo from Google Maps! Gosh ... two bells. That's just silly to the point that it becomes unsafe because people are going to stop paying attention.

Interesting to see that the walkway from the stop to Phillip Street goes on private property along the edge of the building - I wonder how that's going to work, particularly if ownership changes.. Though there does appear to be an easement where they could build a public pathway between the two lots if there are problems.

None of the on-street rights of way use bells and signals, relying instead on traffic lights and large light-up No Right / No Left / Train signs to restrict vehicular traffic, while the trains get the white vertical and horizontal bar signals to let them know when it's their turn through an intersection.

That's good to hear (not hear!). Though pedestrians are a concern - especially given how many get run over in Toronto - particularly where the streetcars have their own reserved space.

You mark north and south. I wonder if there's provision to run cars on only one track for short sections, during construction. I do notice some crossovers - such as one near the Perimeter Institute, and another just north of Old Albert. And a couple more in Kitchener.

 

[KevinT]

Interesting to see that the walkway from the stop to Phillip Street goes on private property along the edge of the building - I wonder how that's going to work, particularly if ownership changes.. Though there does appear to be an easement where they could build a public pathway between the two lots if there are problems.

View attachment 189284

Lol, the new MUT that I drew as a heavy black line on my Google Maps markup is exactly where you indicate. There's just no public aerial imagery of it yet that I've been able to find.

 

[KevinT]

uh ... surely the HTA applies when those cars are going down (for example) King Street. I just checked the property maps, and the entire width of King Street (a highway) is not subdivided. A streetcar (actually "street car" in the Act) is defined simply as "includes a car of an electric or steam railway; (“tramway”)". How is the ION LRV not legally a streetcar when going down King Street?

As you can see in this street view image (bonus, there's an LRV in it!) the central right of way is segregated from the street by curbs, thus making it not a street car:



I believe the fact that you can only board it at stations with level boarding platforms, as opposed to from the street itself such as in Toronto, also makes it not a street car. Even the side running bit of Ottawa St you posted a page back is segregated, as there are roll curbs and it is illegal to park, stop, or do anything other than immediately cross those side running rights of way.

 

[nfitz]

Lol, the new MUT that I drew as a heavy black line on my Google Maps markup is exactly where you indicate. There's just no public aerial imagery of it yet that I've been able to find.

LOL - I didn't know what a MUT was ... I thought that was for that piece of property. And I thought the black line was a silt fence in photo LOL! That's a useful improvement. Is it finished - Google Maps still says you have to walk all the way up to Bearinger to get to the University lands from Phillip Street.

As you can see in this street view image (bonus, there's an LRV in it!) the central right of way is segregated from the street by curbs, thus making it not a street car:

I don't think the concrete medians change the meaning as far as the Highway Traffic Act goes - as the legal definition of highway, includes everything up to the property line "and includes the area between the lateral property lines thereof"!

I don't see how the Highway Traffic Act doesn't apply to the tracks - south of Erb at least (and past Northfield). So how does it not meet the legal definition of a street car?

I believe the fact that you can only board it at stations with level boarding platforms, as opposed to from the street itself such as in Toronto, also makes it not a street car.

By that definition, isn't the 509, 510, and 512 streetcars also not streetcars? Does the 511 stop being a streetcar when it turns from Bathurst to Fleet? Does the 506 briefly not become a streecar when it has a level boarding platform on a few stops on College?

Even the side running bit of Ottawa St you posted a page back is segregated, as there are roll curbs and it is illegal to park, stop, or do anything other than immediately cross those side running rights of way.

It's still in the highway.- as is the sidewalk, poles, and even the front bumper of that parked car, looking at the city's mapping.

 

[W. K. Lis]

As you can see in this street view image (bonus, there's an LRV in it!) the central right of way is segregated from the street by curbs, thus making it not a street car:



I believe the fact that you can only board it at stations with level boarding platforms, as opposed to from the street itself such as in Toronto, also makes it not a street car. Even the side running bit of Ottawa St you posted a page back is segregated, as there are roll curbs and it is illegal to park, stop, or do anything other than immediately cross those side running rights of way.

As well as a horizontal bar transit signal shown in the image, which Toronto's Transportation Department refuses to install on its streetcar right-of-ways.

BTW. The MTO website still shows only the vertical bar transit signal (as of today, June 5th) as being legal. See link.

 

[KevinT]

LOL - I didn't know what a MUT was ... I thought that was for that piece of property. And I thought the black line was a silt fence in photo LOL!

MUT = Multi Use Trail. Sorry, the term gets tossed around so often in the Waterloo Region Connected forums that I got too used to it... typically I try to be conscious of the acronyms I'm using and provide their definitions in my posts.

It's still in the highway.- as is the sidewalk, poles, and even the front bumper of that parked car, looking at the city's mapping.

As you can see, I'm no legal expert. I foolishly applied logic in making my determination that it's not a streetcar.

 

[nfitz]

As you can see, I'm no legal expert. I foolishly applied logic in making my determination that it's not a streetcar.

A question is, what are people going to call it?

It looks almost exactly like what people already call streetcars - less so in KW. But who is the ridership ... students from the GTA?

I doubt the'll say "an Ion passed me". Will they say "a train passed me"? Or "an LRT passed me"? Some will surely call it a bus. Some might call it a tram. Others a trolley. Perhaps some oldtimers might call it ein straßenbahn!

We are probably fools to try and prejudge it. People in London call mostly outdoor shallow non-tube trains tubes (on the District and Metropolitan line) even though they predate the tube tunnels and the name "tube".I'd guess they'll call the new Elizabeth line "Tube" and "Underground" as well, despite the branding otherwise ...

 

[lenaitch]

The HTA definition of a "streetcar" is pretty thin, as quoted by Nfitz, but it is neither a 'vehicle' nor 'motor vehicle' under the Act. Interestingly, the definition of 'vehicle' excludes 'streetcar', but the definition of 'motor vehicle' excludes anything that runs on rails. The authority of the Act is to regulate the movement of people and conveyances in the public shared space (highways). It cannot regulate them on exclusive rights-of-way.

 

[Steve X]

The HTA definition of a "streetcar" is pretty thin, as quoted by Nfitz, but it is neither a 'vehicle' nor 'motor vehicle' under the Act. Interestingly, the definition of 'vehicle' excludes 'streetcar', but the definition of 'motor vehicle' excludes anything that runs on rails. The authority of the Act is to regulate the movement of people and conveyances in the public shared space (highways). It cannot regulate them on exclusive rights-of-way.

If they are a motor vehicle, they would need a licence plate! It would make sense to me that the LRV would be considered a streetcar when running on a public roadway, neither a freight train or a streetcar on it's exclusive LRV ROW but has to apprehend to federal railway laws on all railways. The requirements has to do with where it operates than what is operating.

Rapid Transit on its own exclusive ROW liike TTC subway or Confederation LRT aren't subjected to Transport Canada regulations. Nor is the Queen Streetcar at Humber Loop or Queens Quay Station which have pedestrian crossing. It's TTC's own policy to ring the gong to inform people.

The section at Research and Technology Station is definitely used by conventional trains and thus required by law to sound the horn at all at-grade crossing even if it's 3am in the morning.

Then we have new like Guelph residences are fed up: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitc...from-blaring-traing-horns-overnight-1.5161904
They would need to have a person at each at-grade crossing if they are not to sound the horn.