Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[urbanclient]

Not saying we'd ever upgrade the streetcar line but rather if a future subway project similar to the ontario line ever happens again (very far future). I think we'd need to see a full buildout of East Harbour and the portlands, with even higher densities than proposed today before we ever need that though. 2 GO lines, a subway and multiple streetcar lines is already going to make the area one of the best connected as long as it all gets finished

I haven't pulled out the old fantasy map in a long time, what sort of subway do you foresee going into the portlands? Like what route would this subway take? I am confused yet intrigued.

 

[Rainforest]

Would make a far better stubway than sheppard, but i think with the proximity of the ontario line, advancing the LRT to connect with it is a better first step, especially for serving queens quay where trips are already short. If demand in the portlands grows to be too much we can contemplate a higher capacity solution then

That's true - but only if ideology is not at play.

Especially with the current Finch LRT situation in the background, and especially if the speed of Finch LRT does not improve meaningfully .. it might be easier for the province to allocate money for a more expensive subway than for a less expnsive LRT / streetcar.

 

[Rainforest]

LRTs appear not to be inherently cheaper in Toronto's unique case, even though this streetcar line is obviously different, I worry the short length will drive per km costs up:

$17 billion was spent since ~2009 on Line 5 and 6 for 29 km. If we started planning metro in 2009 it would be cheaper than it is today. The Line 1 extension to Vaughan was done by 2017 for under $300 million per km with 6.2km of TBM tunnel. Even double that per km cost at $600 million/km gets us 28 km of metro for $17 billion. A new subway doesn't have to use 3.1 wide by 140 metre long Toronto rockets. Lighter automated metros from 2.4 to 3 metres wide exist, even lighter in weight per metre than the LRVs on Line 5 and 6. See Vancouver, Paris and Copenhagen. The fact more easily future proofed driverless metro was not considered in Line 5 studies may prove to be a grave mistake when capacity is maxed out on Eglinton in the (distant?) future.

If we compare lines that start construction at the same time, a tunneled subway will always cost more than a streetcar line that runs mostly on surface.

And, any underground line that connects Port Lands to downtown would cost a lot per km, because it would have to be placed quite deep to get under the water body and under all the existing structures.

But on the positive side, we would have the first segment of a potential new future Relief Line.

 

[urbanclient]

If we compare lines that start construction at the same time, a tunneled subway will always cost more than a streetcar line that runs mostly on surface.

And, any underground line that connects Port Lands to downtown would cost a lot per km, because it would have to be placed quite deep to get under the water body and under all the existing structures.

But on the positive side, we would have the first segment of a potential new future Relief Line.

Is 2009 all that far off from 2011, TYSSE vs Line 5? Does two years explain the subway level costs for Line 5? The ROI for LRTs in Toronto looks to be terrible. Spend more than 1/3rd the per km cost of a subway for Line 6, to get 1/10th the route capacity. Spend heavy metro costs for Line 5 to get—at best—half the route capacity of a real metro. It's not like I think streetcars and LRTs shouldn't exist in Canada, but to me those modes are for areas that are not projected to ever hit the critical mass needed for a subway. And Toronto doesn't look like it'll have a stagnant population like most of Europe.

I think it's clear that Toronto is destined to be a megacity. The GTHA is already >8.3 million. If the Century Initiative comes to fruition, are we seriously ok with Sheppard eventually having double the route capacity of Eglinton? Eglinton is 6 km closer to downtown. If Toronto were in Europe it would already be nearing top 5 in metropolitan areas/ urban areas/ agglomerations for population and density, and certainly top 10. That's #1 Istanbul, #2 Moscow, #3 Paris, #4 London, #5 Rhine-Ruhr, #6 Toronto. Again, please don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating for BRT to replace WELRT or a subway into the portlands (yet), hence why I asked for @KhalilHeron to elaborate on his subway vision.

In Toronto, the actual cost per km difference between a streetcar, LRT, and subway are not as pronounced as they should be.

Unnamed European city: € Tram-train<Tram € <<<<<<<TBM metro €€€
Toronto: $$$ Streetcar<LRT$$$$<Subway$$$$$

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

So what’s the hold up with funding here?

Seems like the city has been begging both levels of govt for the past 4 years with zero response, not even a negative.

I’d still like this project to go forward, but I do think the EELRT should be scrapped in favour of funding an Ontario Line extension

 

[DSCToronto]

So what’s the hold up with funding here?

Seems like the city has been begging both levels of govt for the past 4 years with zero response, not even a negative.

I’d still like this project to go forward, but I do think the EELRT should be scrapped in favour of funding an Ontario Line extension

At the WT public session a few weeks ago, they seemed much more optimistic about funding for QQE LRT than I have ever heard them and work is starting @ Parliament Street on the 'early works'. My hopes have been raised before but ....

 

[nfitz]

At the WT public session a few weeks ago, they seemed much more optimistic about funding for QQE LRT than I have ever heard them and work is starting @ Parliament Street on the 'early works'. My hopes have been raised before but ....

What are the early works at Parliament, other than filling in the between the wharfs?

Have I lost track, and they've come to their senses and are planning to add tracks in the centre of the road on Parliament from Queens Quay to King?

 

[DSCToronto]

What are the early works at Parliament, other than filling in the between the wharfs?

Have I lost track, and they've come to their senses and are planning to add tracks in the centre of the road from Queens Quay to King?

Go read https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2025.TE22.14 The tracks are NOT being laid (yet) but when they are they will be on south side of QQE like those west of Bay Street

 

[nfitz]

Go read https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2025.TE22.14 The tracks are NOT being laid (yet) but when they are they will be on south side of QQE like those west of Bay Street

Ah, I see. I forgot that curved bit is officially Parliament rather than Queens Quay.

You got my hopes up for a minute that they'd do a connection from Queens Quay on Parliament to King, the same way they will have a connection from Queens Quay (or whatever the road will be called at Cherry) to the Distillery (and King).

Heck, if you run from Parliament on Front to the plaza between Union and the Royal York with some two-ended streetcars, you'd have a much cheaper solution than this rebuild the Union Station streetcar loop! Though I suppose if you do that, you might as well use Yonge.

 

[DSCToronto]

Ah, I see. I forgot that curved bit is officially Parliament rather than Queens Quay.

You got my hopes up for a minute that they'd do a connection from Queens Quay on Parliament to King, the same way they will have a connection from Queens Quay (or whatever the road will be called at Cherry) to the Distillery (and King).

Heck, if you run from Parliament on Front to the plaza between Union and the Royal York with some two-ended streetcars, you'd have a much cheaper solution than this rebuild the Union Station streetcar loop! Though I suppose if you do that, you might as well use Yonge.

View attachment 702697

Don't forget that WT are starting to lay out the QQE extenssion and put in the drains and utilities. This phote from recent WT report shows line of new QQE being compressed by extra easrt/sand to squeeze out the water.

 

[nfitz]

Don't forget that WT are starting to lay out the QQE extenssion and put in the drains and utilities. This phote from recent WT report shows line of new QQE being compressed by extra easrt/sand to sqy=uieeze out the water.

Ah - the lakefill is in I see! Done during 2024 from looking at Google Earth - I wish Google Maps would update their current July 2021 imagery for that area.

All that is progress, but it's only critical path to getting us a BRT. What they need to do is find a good $$$ solution to get LRT along here, and onto Ookwemin Minising - rather than a perfect $$$$$ solution, involving rebuilding the Union Loop. Perfect is the enemy of good.

 

[drum118]

So what’s the hold up with funding here?

Seems like the city has been begging both levels of govt for the past 4 years with zero response, not even a negative.

I’d still like this project to go forward, but I do think the EELRT should be scrapped in favour of funding an Ontario Line extension

The lion share of funding to build the extension is for the loop and why I have called for building the east-west line first with a wye connection to the tunnel. The tunnel entrance would be built to support the e-w line and block off and would be ready to be reopen in the future. Once funds are found for the tunnel and loop, work can take place for it with out interfering with e-w service.

If the go ahead to build the e-w line in 2027, we will see an opening date in 2031 or sooner.

Work is to start on the Parliament new layout in 2026/27 with infrastructure for the east loop in 2027. It will not take much work to place tracks for that loop as well the ROW down to the new QQE road and ROW. The intersection work at Cherry St and the QQE will cause some traffic issues for a month. The new road and ROW between Cherry St and Parliament will have no impact on anything. The new rebuilt road and ROW will have a major impact on traffic like QQW did when it was rebuilt. Then you need the Yonge Slip fill in and done before the new portal can be built.

The current work at Parliament area is for electrical work as well for TTC substation.

The whole idea from day one was to make QQE part of the network that allows for many different type of service not only to Union, but to Exhibition and the west. Once the new Dufferin St bridge is built, it opens up another few options for service even having a loop from Cherry to Dufferin.

 

[KhalilHeron]

I haven't pulled out the old fantasy map in a long time, what sort of subway do you foresee going into the portlands? Like what route would this subway take? I am confused yet intrigued.

I dont have any alignment or anything in mind, again i think the Ontario line plus GO plus new streetcars will be enough to serve the area for a long time. but if we ever ended up building another subway like the ontario line, maybe along King street, i could see it turning south to serve the distillery and the portlands after interchanging with line 3 at Corktown. Could terminate there or continue north east. Instead, if the gardiner is ever ripped out, some sort of elevated transit or another LRT/streetcar can be built along whatever they build to replace the highway.

 

[KhalilHeron]

Ah - the lakefill is in I see! Done during 2024 from looking at Google Earth - I wish Google Maps would update their current July 2021 imagery for that area.

All that is progress, but it's only critical path to getting us a BRT. What they need to do is find a good $$$ solution to get LRT along here, and onto Ookwemin Minising - rather than a perfect $$$$$ solution, involving rebuilding the Union Loop. Perfect is the enemy of good.

You can use the historic imagery on google earth to see some imagery from earlier this year. Gives you a good timelapse as well

 

[Rainforest]

Is 2009 all that far off from 2011, TYSSE vs Line 5? Does two years explain the subway level costs for Line 5? The ROI for LRTs in Toronto looks to be terrible. Spend more than 1/3rd the per km cost of a subway for Line 6, to get 1/10th the route capacity. Spend heavy metro costs for Line 5 to get—at best—half the route capacity of a real metro. It's not like I think streetcars and LRTs shouldn't exist in Canada, but to me those modes are for areas that are not projected to ever hit the critical mass needed for a subway. And Toronto doesn't look like it'll have a stagnant population like most of Europe.

Line 5 is an odd duck, an LRT for 80% of subway cost, a decent overall speed, but only 40% of the subway capacity. That kind of design should never be repeated.

Surface LRTs are cheaper than subways. Yes, about 1/3 per-km cost. Good or bad ROI is a separate issue; I guess depends on the chosen corridor and on the quality of implementation.

I think it's clear that Toronto is destined to be a megacity. The GTHA is already >8.3 million. If the Century Initiative comes to fruition, are we seriously ok with Sheppard eventually having double the route capacity of Eglinton? Eglinton is 6 km closer to downtown. If Toronto were in Europe it would already be nearing top 5 in metropolitan areas/ urban areas/ agglomerations for population and density, and certainly top 10. That's #1 Istanbul, #2 Moscow, #3 Paris, #4 London, #5 Rhine-Ruhr, #6 Toronto. Again, please don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating for BRT to replace WELRT or a subway into the portlands (yet), hence why I asked for @KhalilHeron to elaborate on his subway vision.

Nothing inherently wrong with Sheppard having more capacity than Eglinton. Yes, Eglinton is closer to downtown, but also closer to the competing Line 2. Furthermore, the demand level partly depends on the structure of feeder routes. It is possible to shift a portion of the demand from Eglinton to Sheppard, and thus delay the moment when Eglinton runs over capacity.