Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[Amare]

And there's no grand vision of the GTA being offered by the Liberals nor NDP. It's not visionary to lay some tracks on a road in an exclusive right-of-way and call it rapid transit. Is the 510 or 512 considered rapid transit? We've seen what Liberal and NDP gov'ts (i.e. David Miller) have to offer. No thanks!

We've also seen what PC governments have to offer: status quo.

Stephen Harper offered us status quo (all his government did was match funding anytime a project was ready for construction). Rob Ford offered us status quo and cuts (via reduced service levels on all TTC service including subways). John Tory has also offered us status quo (via pushing the DRL timeline even further down the line, and taking various transit lines off the provinces books and into the city's books with no clear timeline on when the acquired projects will be delivered).

 

[Filip]

People like you are the reason nothing gets done in this city. People don't want to pay taxes, fine, I don't like spending all my money either. However, it's imperative to me, and the city I live in, that I support all the programs that go into making a healthy community and bettering the lives of the youth that are to replace me. Your selfish ideology is what costs us and everyone after you billions of dollars in lost productivity and lack of SOGR.

So you pay for it then.

 

[Filip]

I hate to break it too you most people aren't likely to see a cut in their taxes at least the ones that think they will get one. Most of the Tax cut the PC party has promised in the past have been ones to people that make the highest income levels and to corporations. The last PC governments tax cuts are why Ontario has so much debt. The same can be said with the federal govermnt. When the Liberals left office in Otwas ther was a budget surplues thatr if it was manged porpperly insted of using it all it would have lasted for years. Insted under Steaphean Harper it was spent in one budget.

I seek to benefit from the PC tax cuts as currently planned.

 

[Streety McCarface]

So you pay for it then.

I intend on doing so, that doesn't mean that I can't blame people like you and your mindset for being the cause of these issues.

 

[BurlOak]

Dude, don't be so naive! WWLRT has already been delayed by so many decades that it's a running joke.

Ride times from HBS to downtown on the WWLRT will be comparable to the 501! Why do we need it then? I'm asking a serious questions.. What is the need for a WWLRT? I agree, it should be delayed or cancelled. 55 mins to travel less than 10 km on a 'rapid' transit line doesn't make too much sense.

Maybe the problem is that it's not grade-separated (elevated).

• From Long Branch to Sunnyside, it's about 10km which could be elevated.
• It's about 1.5km from here to King West Village - I'd hope this could be elevated as well, and it means redeveloping this entire portion.
• It would then be the continuation of the Scarborough Line (which is elevated to Bathurst, underground to Cherry, and elevated out to Scarborough).
• The Harbourfront LRT would remain in place, going from the Ex to Union (and continuing East as well with alternating trains).
• In the NE - 1 branch to Malvern and 1 to UTSC.
• In the SW - 1 branch to Long Branch and 1 to the Ex.

(forgive me, but I added in small B-D extensions and Sheppard extensions as well. DRL is not shown since I still have no real idea where the West leg will go).

 

[Leo_Chan]

Maybe the problem is that it's not grade-separated (elevated).

• From Long Branch to Sunnyside, it's about 10km which could be elevated.
• It's about 1.5km from here to King West Village - I'd hope this could be elevated as well, and it means redeveloping this entire portion.
• It would then be the continuation of the Scarborough Line (which is elevated to Bathurst, underground to Cherry, and elevated out to Scarborough).
• The Harbourfront LRT would remain in place, going from the Ex to Union (and continuing East as well with alternating trains).
• In the NE - 1 branch to Malvern and 1 to UTSC.
• In the SW - 1 branch to Long Branch and 1 to the Ex.

(forgive me, but I added in small B-D extensions and Sheppard extensions as well. DRL is not shown since I still have no real idea where the West leg will go).

View attachment 145687

It's not that great of an idea to go stray too far away from currently proposed plans. Your point about requiring grade-separation still requires further information. The Eglinton Crosstown LRT will open in 2021, so the amount of transit priority provided for the surface priory will need to be focused on then. If we use the King Street Pilot and Waterloo ION LRT as references, people will have to be educated on the changes, transit signal priority will have to be activated prior to day one of service, and a dedicated ROW will be necessary. I attached a map that seems more likely.

 

[BurlOak]

It's not that great of an idea to go stray too far away from currently proposed plans. Your point about requiring grade-separation still requires further information. The Eglinton Crosstown LRT will open in 2021, so the amount of transit priority provided for the surface priory will need to be focused on then. If we use the King Street Pilot and Waterloo ION LRT as references, people will have to be educated on the changes, transit signal priority will have to be activated prior to day one of service, and a dedicated ROW will be necessary. I attached a map that seems more likely.
View attachment 145695

Does this mean we should cancel all (not yet started) LRT projects to wait and see how on-street actually works on Eglinton and KW).?

 

[dowlingm]

If the NDP did get in it would be great to see a more aggressive approach, building the Humber Bridge which would allow an LRT to stay on Lakeshore all the way from Bathurst to Long Branch instead of a cheap ass chicane via the Queensway and the dreaded Humber Loop.

That said, HBS does at least have GO and the existing streetcar. The East Bayfront doesn’t have QQE LRT, Cherry LRT south of the rail embankment, Broadview South and is struggling to cope already with many more developments in the pipeline.

 

[DopeyFish]

If the NDP did get in it would be great to see a more aggressive approach, building the Humber Bridge which would allow an LRT to stay on Lakeshore all the way from Bathurst to Long Branch instead of a cheap ass chicane via the Queensway and the dreaded Humber Loop.

That said, HBS does at least have GO and the existing streetcar. The East Bayfront doesn’t have QQE LRT, Cherry LRT south of the rail embankment, Broadview South and is struggling to cope already with many more developments in the pipeline.

you won't need loops for LRT because they go both ways, no?

unless they're just going to be using the current streetcar trains

 

[44 North]

One Ford Kill Streetcars as Mayor, now the other as Leader of the PC. 10 years now and counting when the eastern extension was approve EA for construction for 509.

PCs alone in not pledging dollars for ‘critical’ Toronto waterfront LRT

I don't fully blame them for not wanting to fund EBF/QQE LRT. If it was just an LRT they'd help fund, I'm sure they would. Since it's just ~2km it'd cost something like $150M, and their 1/3 funding would naturally be in the area of $50M. Peanuts. But this project is unfortunately saddled with the Union rebuild, which isn't fair and increases costs four-fold. From a political or cost-benefits perspective that's not a winner.

Perhaps there's a way to detach any waterfront LRT costs from the Union rebuild costs. Make them separate. Both would still be funded in their own way, but from a line item pov it could make waterfront LRT *itself* more economical.

Maybe the problem is that it's not grade-separated (elevated).

• From Long Branch to Sunnyside, it's about 10km which could be elevated.
• It's about 1.5km from here to King West Village - I'd hope this could be elevated as well, and it means redeveloping this entire portion.
• It would then be the continuation of the Scarborough Line (which is elevated to Bathurst, underground to Cherry, and elevated out to Scarborough).
• The Harbourfront LRT would remain in place, going from the Ex to Union (and continuing East as well with alternating trains).
• In the NE - 1 branch to Malvern and 1 to UTSC.
• In the SW - 1 branch to Long Branch and 1 to the Ex.

(forgive me, but I added in small B-D extensions and Sheppard extensions as well. DRL is not shown since I still have no real idea where the West leg will go).

You should make a separate spur on the east into Unilever and Villiers Island. So from the Ex to Villiers a central waterfront/Queen line could operate as a shuttle. Not saying I 100% support your proposal, but I do really like that it's much broader in scope than we're used to seeing. Affordable sections, dynamic sections, far-reaching and would be politically very popular... this is the way we used to plan things in the 60s and 70s. Only recent example is maybe Ford-McGuinty MOU.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's not that great of an idea to go stray too far away from currently proposed plans. Your point about requiring grade-separation still requires further information. The Eglinton Crosstown LRT will open in 2021, so the amount of transit priority provided for the surface priory will need to be focused on then. If we use the King Street Pilot and Waterloo ION LRT as references, people will have to be educated on the changes, transit signal priority will have to be activated prior to day one of service, and a dedicated ROW will be necessary. I attached a map that seems more likely.
View attachment 145695

I wonder if the Waterfront Transit Reset plans should have been better integrated with the Relief Line West planning. City Planning says that they'll begin planning on the Relief Line West as the Relief Line North planning is complete. Given their new extremely accelerated timeline for the Relief Line North, that point could be as little as two years away (that's when RLN EA will begin). Naturally, any waterfront transit lines will likely be interchanging with the Relief Line West.

When the Waterfront Transit Reset was commenced, I don't think City Planning expected to be advancing the Relief Line North as quickly as they have, hence the lack of integration between the waterfront and Relief Line West projects. I certainly never dreamed that the RLN EA would be completed as soon as 2020 (the current plan)

Anyways, what you've outlined in your map is pretty obvious, but sensible. If Toronto has any sense, what's ultimately built will look like this. The Relief Line West is the best way to improve the connection between the western waterfront, southern Etobicoke and Downtown.

 

[Jeff Morgan]

So is the likelihood of any new transit on the Waterfront extremely low given the election results?

 

[DopeyFish]

So is the likelihood of any new transit on the Waterfront extremely low given the election results?

not extremely low. Toronto may just fund the project themselves, the infrastructure bank may take on the project or the federal government might

without provincial money it does slow things down but it's a priority project

 

[rbt]

not extremely low. Toronto may just fund the project themselves, the infrastructure bank may take on the project or the federal government might

without provincial money it does slow things down but it's a priority project

It's about as dead as it was under Miller when the city was expected to self-fund Waterfront West.

East is a bit more interesting because a faster buildout would enable the city to pay down debt; increased property taxes in a low overhead location. Union is tricky but perhaps the platform inside CIBC will be sufficient to cobble something together. If not, the King ROW adds options too.

 

[DopeyFish]

It's about as dead as it was under Miller when the city was expected to self-fund Waterfront West.

East is a bit more interesting because a faster buildout would enable the city to pay down debt; increased property taxes in a low overhead location. Union is tricky but perhaps the platform inside CIBC will be sufficient to cobble something together. If not, the King ROW adds options too.

Humber Bay shores wasn't a thing back then. Now there's huge pressure to do it. Eastern waterfront wasn't a thing either.

Also if Ford scraps the MLTT, Toronto is going to become legit screwed and won't be able to fund anything