VIA Rail

[reaperexpress]

On Tuesday I rode train 46 from Toronto to Ottawa, and the train was initially delayed departing Union due to "equipment availability". Something about waiting for a train to arrive from the Toronto Maintenance Centre. Staff in the station did keep us informed of the delay, and I received an email with an updated departure time.

Within a half hour, we had boarded the train and it departed at 16:01, 11 minutes behind the previous GO Train, and 4 minutes ahead of the following GO train. But rather than allowing us to use the perfect gap between GO trains, Metrolinx dispatching decided to make us sit just outside Union Station for five minutes waiting for the 16:05 Lakeshore East local to go first. And then of course once we did get to go, we were now stuck behind a GO Transit local train and had to crawl slowly all the way from Toronto to Pickering.

The result was that Metrolinx turned a 29-minute delay at Union into a 48-minute delay at Pickering where Via Trains leave the GO line.

In my experience, it is very common for Metrolinx dispatching to sabotage Via Rail operations. Another common scenario I've experienced is when westbound Via Trains on the express track get held at Danforth so that a local GO train that they have already overtaken can catch up to them again, and cut them off. In all of these situations, the GO Train would have experienced little to no delay if the Via train had been allowed to proceed first.

People often say that Via's poor reliability is because they use railways owned by freight companies, but in my experience, the most hostile track owner they have is the Government of Ontario. CN seems to be far more accommodating than Metrolinx when it comes to changing track assignmenets in real time to allow a Via Train to overtake a slower train.

 

[just east of the creek]

Westbound on the 401 today, around 5 pm, in the vicinity of Liverpool Road, I passed three VIA trainsets, stopped and holding. At least two of the three were Westbound, as their locomotives were on the western head of the train, the third set was one of the recent acquisitions, so harder to conclusively say it was westbound, although that might make sense. Not sure this is a Metrolinx issue, as described above, but in full view of the 401, not a great PR bonanza, not to mention the passengers frustration. Time for dedicated tracks and there is room.

 

[cplchanb]

The new train schedule has been updated.
Anyone spot the new slots?

New fleet | VIA Rail

www.viarail.ca

 

[dowlingm]

In my experience, it is very common for Metrolinx dispatching to sabotage Via Rail operations. Another common scenario I've experienced is when westbound Via Trains on the express track get held at Danforth so that a local GO train that they have already overtaken a while ago can catch up to them again, and cut them off. In all of these situations, the GO Train would have experienced little to no delay if the Via train had been allowed to proceed first.

People often say that Via's poor reliability is because they use railways owned by freight companies, but in my experience, the most hostile track owner they have is the Government of Ontario. CN seems to be far more accommodating than Metrolinx when it comes to changing track assignmenets in real time to allow a Via Train to overtake a slower train.

You might be right but leading off with an example where VIA appears to have sabotaged themselves first isn’t what I’d use. In the case of the Danforth express, was that train running on time?

 

[SaugeenJunction]

The new train schedule has been updated.
Anyone spot the new slots?

New fleet | VIA Rail

www.viarail.ca

Southwestern Ontario still has zero

 

[micheal_can]

Southwestern Ontario still has zero

I am guessing they are all first going to the MMC before the TMC. That seems like the most logical reason for nothing west of Toronto.

 

[Bojaxs]

The new train schedule has been updated.
Anyone spot the new slots?

New fleet | VIA Rail

www.viarail.ca

Looks like train 40. Didn't see it on the previous schedule. I'm taking train 40 to Ottawa on June 19th.

I'm probably one of the few people that actually wants to ride the older trains. It's my first time riding VIA and I want to ride the older trains before they get phased out. Thankfully it looks like my train back to Toronto (train 53) is still one of the old trains.

 

[reaperexpress]

You might be right but leading off with an example where VIA appears to have sabotaged themselves first isn’t what I’d use.

I don't know why the train was late arriving from the maintenance centre. Maybe Via screwed up, or maybe Metrolinx failed to give them a slot to exit the yard. Both have happened before.

What I do know is that 19 minutes of delay was actively caused by Metrolinx. Eastbound Via trains are scheduled to depart Union at :02, :17, :32, and :47 past the hour because those are the times that are optimal to fit between Lakeshore East local trains (which depart at :05, :20, :35 and :50 past the hour). The Via train in question departed Union at :02 past the hour and the surrounding GO trains were on time, so allowing the train to depart when it was ready would have incurred little or no impact on GO trains while minimizing delay for the Via train.

Being late is not a reason to delay a train, on the contrary it's a reason to prioritize a train so that the delay can be minimized.

In the case of the Danforth express, was that train running on time?

No, the Via train to Toronto was running late, which makes it especially important to prioritize it over trains that are on time and have schedule padding available to make up delays. Especially in cases such as this one where the delay to the on-time train would be negligible if any. The Via train was already in front of the GO train and going over 130 km/h, so the worst case scenario is literally less than a minute of delay while the GO train waits for the switch to change, after which it would have an unobstructed shot to Union because the Via train would be long gone. A Via train to Windsor was holding in Union Station waiting for the Via train to arrive, and because of the additional 10 minutes of delay that Metrolinx created in addition to the original delay, that train to Windsor departed 10 minutes late, allowing delays to continue propagating across the Ontario rail network.

From what I've observed from Metrolinx dispatching, the decision between letting the GO train go first or the Via train has nothing to do with the delay to either train. If the Via train is late, the GO train goes first. And if the GO train is late, the GO train goes first.

If Metrolinx were a for-profit company then it would be understandable that they prioritize their own trains regardless of how much delay that will cause to other train operators relative to how much delay their trains would save. But they are not a private company. They are a government agency so their duty is to the citizens of Ontario, including those in Via trains. As such they should be dispatching their railways in the way that minimizes delay to train passengers, including those in Via trains. In effect, Metrolinx should be operating as a rail infrastructure manager, for whom Via and GO are simply two Train Operating Companies that are their customers. The train that gets prioritized should be the one that will minimize the overall impact on the Ontario rail network, not simply the one that's green.

 

[cplchanb]

I don't know why the train was late arriving from the maintenance centre. Maybe Via screwed up, or maybe Metrolinx failed to give them a slot to exit the yard. Both have happened before.

What I do know is that 19 minutes of delay was actively caused by Metrolinx. Eastbound Via trains are scheduled to depart Union at :02, :17, :32, and :47 past the hour because those are the times that are optimal to fit between Lakeshore East local trains (which depart at :05, :20, :35 and :50 past the hour). The Via train in question departed Union at :02 past the hour and the surrounding GO trains were on time, so allowing the train to depart when it was ready would have incurred little or no impact on GO trains while minimizing delay for the Via train.

Being late is not a reason to delay a train, on the contrary it's a reason to prioritize a train so that the delay can be minimized.


No, the Via train to Toronto was running late, which makes it especially important to prioritize it over trains that are on time and have schedule padding available to make up delays. Especially in cases such as this one where the delay to the on-time train would be negligible if any. The Via train was already in front of the GO train and going over 130 km/h, so the worst case scenario is literally less than a minute of delay while the GO train waits for the switch to change, after which it would have an unobstructed shot to Union because the Via train would be long gone. A Via train to Windsor was holding in Union Station waiting for the Via train to arrive, and because of the additional 10 minutes of delay that Metrolinx created in addition to the original delay, that train to Windsor departed 10 minutes late, allowing delays to continue propagating across the Ontario rail network.

From what I've observed from Metrolinx dispatching, the decision between letting the GO train go first or the Via train has nothing to do with the delay to either train. If the Via train is late, the GO train goes first. And if the GO train is late, the GO train goes first.
View attachment 568904
View attachment 568906

If Metrolinx were a for-profit company then it would be understandable that they prioritize their own trains regardless of how much delay that will cause to other train operators relative to how much delay their trains would save. But they are not a private company. They are a government agency so their duty is to the citizens of Ontario, including those in Via trains. As such they should be dispatching their railways in the way that minimizes delay to train passengers, including those in Via trains. In effect, Metrolinx should be operating as a rail infrastructure manager, for whom Via and GO are simply two Train Operating Companies that are their customers. The train that gets prioritized should be the one that will minimize the overall impact on the Ontario rail network, not simply the one that's green.

It's moronic how difficult it is for 2 transit agencies to work out together for trains departing max every 15 min and hourly, meanwhile places like Tokyo station with multiple operators, dozens of lines, local, rapid and limited express trains, departing every other minute, all with their own self interests yet they are able to work together to deliver pin point accuracy to their schedules down to the second. Makes us look like novices in this business. Not even amateurs

 

[micheal_can]

I don't know why the train was late arriving from the maintenance centre. Maybe Via screwed up, or maybe Metrolinx failed to give them a slot to exit the yard. Both have happened before.

What I do know is that 19 minutes of delay was actively caused by Metrolinx. Eastbound Via trains are scheduled to depart Union at :02, :17, :32, and :47 past the hour because those are the times that are optimal to fit between Lakeshore East local trains (which depart at :05, :20, :35 and :50 past the hour). The Via train in question departed Union at :02 past the hour and the surrounding GO trains were on time, so allowing the train to depart when it was ready would have incurred little or no impact on GO trains while minimizing delay for the Via train.

Being late is not a reason to delay a train, on the contrary it's a reason to prioritize a train so that the delay can be minimized.


No, the Via train to Toronto was running late, which makes it especially important to prioritize it over trains that are on time and have schedule padding available to make up delays. Especially in cases such as this one where the delay to the on-time train would be negligible if any. The Via train was already in front of the GO train and going over 130 km/h, so the worst case scenario is literally less than a minute of delay while the GO train waits for the switch to change, after which it would have an unobstructed shot to Union because the Via train would be long gone. A Via train to Windsor was holding in Union Station waiting for the Via train to arrive, and because of the additional 10 minutes of delay that Metrolinx created in addition to the original delay, that train to Windsor departed 10 minutes late, allowing delays to continue propagating across the Ontario rail network.

From what I've observed from Metrolinx dispatching, the decision between letting the GO train go first or the Via train has nothing to do with the delay to either train. If the Via train is late, the GO train goes first. And if the GO train is late, the GO train goes first.
View attachment 568904
View attachment 568906

If Metrolinx were a for-profit company then it would be understandable that they prioritize their own trains regardless of how much delay that will cause to other train operators relative to how much delay their trains would save. But they are not a private company. They are a government agency so their duty is to the citizens of Ontario, including those in Via trains. As such they should be dispatching their railways in the way that minimizes delay to train passengers, including those in Via trains. In effect, Metrolinx should be operating as a rail infrastructure manager, for whom Via and GO are simply two Train Operating Companies that are their customers. The train that gets prioritized should be the one that will minimize the overall impact on the Ontario rail network, not simply the one that's green.

GO trains pride themselves on being on time. It is not a surprise that the Via would need to wait so that a GO train was able to keep its schedule. Thsi does beg the question about what will happen with Via HFR and Go 2WAD when they are operating in the same tracks.

 

[Mihairokov]

The new train schedule has been updated.
Anyone spot the new slots?

New fleet | VIA Rail

www.viarail.ca

55 Thursday is new!

 

[Dan416]

In terms of Metrolinx dispatching, from riding the Milton line, I'd say that Milton is always the least prioritized because we are literally always waiting for signals without fail. So clearly someone else is prioritized ahead of Milton trains, whether that's Lakeshore or Georgetown trains or both, but I'm sure Milton has the lowest priority for them.

 

[smallspy]

Being late is not a reason to delay a train, on the contrary it's a reason to prioritize a train so that the delay can be minimized.


No, the Via train to Toronto was running late, which makes it especially important to prioritize it over trains that are on time and have schedule padding available to make up delays. Especially in cases such as this one where the delay to the on-time train would be negligible if any. The Via train was already in front of the GO train and going over 130 km/h, so the worst case scenario is literally less than a minute of delay while the GO train waits for the switch to change, after which it would have an unobstructed shot to Union because the Via train would be long gone. A Via train to Windsor was holding in Union Station waiting for the Via train to arrive, and because of the additional 10 minutes of delay that Metrolinx created in addition to the original delay, that train to Windsor departed 10 minutes late, allowing delays to continue propagating across the Ontario rail network.

There is a problem with this line of thinking, from a railroading standpoint.

The dispatching organization also runs their own trains, and so has a vested interest in the timeliness of those trains.

They have no so interest in the timeliness of the trains that they allow from other organizations.

Until such a time that on-time performance metrics get tied into the remuneration for allowing those trains to operate on the track, there is zero incentive to fix it.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

Until such a time that on-time performance metrics get tied into the remuneration for allowing those trains to operate on the track, there is zero incentive to fix it.

Further, it is unclear whether VIA and/or Ottawa is actually paying its way for any capacity it is presuming to use in the GTA.

Ottawa promised Ontario $1.8B for GO expansion back in 2017..... I have no information on whether Ottawa ever cut that cheque or if amounts will be paid over time. That's not that big a contribution in the context of the entire GO expansion..... certainly not the 30% or more that has been announced for other transit projects around the country. Did ML make any assurances to VIA in return?

It's also unclear how much capacity has been roughed in for VIA as GO has planned its infrastructure expansion. That's critical for HFR especially. We don't know what assumptions ML has made about VIA trains, and on what specific routings. Has VIA been "at the table" when capital investment for expansion to Kitchener, Niagara, and beyond Oshawa been finalised?

I do think VIA needs to have priority over GO.... but someone needs to pay the bill for that. I'm actually surprised that someone like Doug Ford (who has no hesitation to butt heads with Ottawa from time to time) hasn't made a bigger issue out of this. If Ottawa has dragged its feet while ML figured out how much capacity to build, well, they may have missed the train.

- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

There is a problem with this line of thinking, from a railroading standpoint.

The dispatching organization also runs their own trains, and so has a vested interest in the timeliness of those trains.

They have no so interest in the timeliness of the trains that they allow from other organizations.

Until such a time that on-time performance metrics get tied into the remuneration for allowing those trains to operate on the track, there is zero incentive to fix it.

Your description of "railroading standpoint" is simply a description of a for-profit company, which the Province of Ontario is not.

I know that they have no interest in the timelinesss of trains from other organizations. That's exactly what I'm saying. We, as the citizens of Ontario, should be demanding that Metrolinx act as an impartial rail infrastructure operator to benefit all passenger operations in Ontario, not just GO Transit, and as such their performance metrics should be changed to include evaluation for performance of Via Rail trains as well as GO Trains. In many states, it's actually the state-owned segments of railway where Amtrak has the most reliable service. It's absurd that in Ontario the provincially-owned railways are among the most unreliable segments for Via Rail on a per-kilometre basis.

The current situation where Metrolinx Rail Traffic Control is only evaluated on the performance of GO trains and not at all on other trains creates a horrendously suboptimal situation where dispatch regularly adds 15+ minutes of delay to Via trains just on the off chance that doing so could save 30 seconds for an on-time GO Train that already has several minutes of schedule padding. There is no possible evaluation of railroading in which that decision is in the best interest of the public.

It's interesting to note that the Province also owns most of the highways in Ontario, and yet the provincially-owned GO Transit and Ontario Northland buses don't get any significant level of priority over privately-owned vehicles. It's almost as if the decisions of the MTO are made with more than just the bottom line of GO Transit in mind.

I'd argue that the MTO should in fact prioritize provincial buses on highways (e.g. bus lanes) but just as Via Rail should receive a similar level of service to GO on publicly-owned railways, private intercity buses (Flixbus, Megabus, etc) should have access to priority features like bus lanes just as GO buses do.