VIA Rail

[drum118]

May 2
Saw 2207 as well 22xx at TMC today as the other train was too far to get the number. As I was turning on to Park Lawn, looks like it may have been 2203 heading west. Seeing 3 in one day was something new and things to come as more sets arrive.

Boy, are they doing a number on TMC building with braces holding up the south wall.

 

[kEiThZ]

If even rail nerds like myself have no idea what we are talking about, there is a slight problem. What is DND and what is NRE? Don‘t worry about HFR, that one I know…

DND = Department of National Defence

NRE = Non-recurrent Engineering

NRE is funding given to modify an existing design. The military is usually the place where NRE is routinely funded. And as government policies have increasingly become focused on buying off-the-shelf and not customizing, except for economic reasons (like sustaining the industrial base), NRE funding is becoming more rare. If the military is finding NRE hard to justify, imagine what VIA would have to do to sell an NRE proposal that increases VIA's operating costs and actually competes with the private sector for lodging.

 

[Urban Sky]

DND = Department of National Defence

NRE = Non-recurrent Engineering

NRE is funding given to modify an existing design. The military is usually the place where NRE is routinely funded. And as government policies have increasingly become focused on buying off-the-shelf and not customizing, except for economic reasons (like sustaining the industrial base), NRE funding is becoming more rare. If the military is finding NRE hard to justify, imagine what VIA would have to do to sell an NRE proposal that increases VIA's operating costs and actually competes with the private sector for lodging.

I kind of figured DND out, but it didn‘t make any sense to me since I had never come across NRE (not just as an acronym, but also as a concept). Maybe keep in mind in the future that this is an urbanist and not a military or public procurement forum and that not commonly-used and widely understood or intuitive abbreviations are best avoided…

 

[micheal_can]

Or never. If DND has no real budget for NRE, there's no way VIA is getting one. Also, NRE to create a niche, orphan sub-fleet with even more management and scheduling headaches? Only rail nerds would think that's a good idea.

I understand that may be the case. I was merely pointing out pathways that could be taken if there was ever the funding to have it return.

Finally, HFR would make any sort of overnight Corridor East train redundant.

How would all of this be redundant with HFR? I thought the point was for a train to arrive before the workday begins. That would mean that having a train that leaves really early and can be slept on can still be a need.

 

[kEiThZ]

How would all of this be redundant with HFR? I thought the point was for a train to arrive before the workday begins. That would mean that having a train that leaves really early and can be slept on can still be a need.

Boarding early and requiring a lie flat to avoid a night at a hotel will be unnecessary if travel times are fast enough. You don't see a lot of sleeper trains on HSR routes elsewhere in the world. If it's 3 hrs from Toronto to Ottawa or 4 hrs between Toronto and Montreal, there's no need for specially modified trains. Most riders will still be satisfied with a 5-6am departure getting them to their destination.

 

[micheal_can]

Boarding early and requiring a lie flat to avoid a night at a hotel will be unnecessary if travel times are fast enough. You don't see a lot of sleeper trains on HSR routes elsewhere in the world. If it's 3 hrs from Toronto to Ottawa or 4 hrs between Toronto and Montreal, there's no need for specially modified trains. Most riders will still be satisfied with a 5-6am departure getting them to their destination.

Using your example, lets say that a train is to arrive at 8am in Montreal and 7am in Ottawa. That would require the train to leave at 4am. Let's say you arrive at Union at 330. Assuming using Blue Night buses, you are likely going to be up since 2-3am. Are you suggesting having lay flat coaches would not be wanted? The other thing to think of is that when HFR is built, more rolling stock will be needed to meet the demand. What that ends up being is up for debate, but some may end up being set up to serve the overnight trains.

 

[dowlingm]

If there is a need for an overnight service, it should be predicated on a need now or in the short term, rather than deferred on the basis of a high or higher speed service that is not likely to be delivered in any reasonable timeframe based on progress to date. Use the best of the remaining HEP2s at a gentle pace and if HFR/HSR does actually appear, well then not much of value will be scrapped.

We also have to bear in mind that some track time does need to be allocated for inspections and routine works, which running truly overnight services on single track to and from Ottawa would surely at least complicate.

 

[kEiThZ]

Using your example, lets say that a train is to arrive at 8am in Montreal and 7am in Ottawa. That would require the train to leave at 4am. Let's say you arrive at Union at 330. Assuming using Blue Night buses, you are likely going to be up since 2-3am. Are you suggesting having lay flat coaches would not be wanted?

No. I am suggesting that most people will wait for a 6am departure and be fine with reaching their destination at 10am. The handful of people who really need to be in the office at 8am would probably take a 6am flight. Just look at the seat count of flights leaving at or before 7am from Ottawa to Toronto, for example. They wouldn't add up to a single train combined. VIA doesn't have the resources to compete for every single marginal rider. And they'll be avoiding those that come with added cost (like requiring NRE for lie flat seats).

If there is a need for an overnight service, it should be predicated on a need now or in the short term,

There really isn't. We just have the usual railfan banter extrapolating one new service to the Nth degree. It's pretty clear this service is not about getting an early departure from Ottawa. And more about serving communities down the line. They are simply operating early out of Ottawa because that's where the crews and trains are based. If they could be economically based in Kingston, they'd start there. There's probably going to lots of cheap seats leaving Ottawa, especially for destinations east of Coburg.

 

[trainfanjacob8]

Even when late-night trains ran, the demand was not that great. When VIA 89 ran (Toronto to London via the Guelph Sub., departing Union at 22:10, and arriving into London at 01:37), the train was mostly empty except for Friday and Sunday nights. VIA 688, a short-lived late-night train in the 2000s from London to Toronto, was a bust. Looking ahead, VIA needs to focus on adding frequencies during daytime hours wherever possible.

 

[crs1026]

Even when late-night trains ran, the demand was not that great. When VIA 89 ran (Toronto to London via the Guelph Sub., departing Union at 22:10, and arriving into London at 01:37), the train was mostly empty except for Friday and Sunday nights. VIA 688, a short-lived late-night train in the 2000s from London to Toronto, was a bust. Looking ahead, VIA needs to focus on adding frequencies during daytime hours wherever possible.

That's because the timing of connections has changed over the years. In CN days, the evening traffic from Montreal and Ottawa all arrived on only two or three trains that were timed to arrive shortly before 23:00. That enabled a "mini hub" where there were runs to Stratford, London, and Niagara all departing around 23:10-23:15. All three of these routes had solid passenger counts on the late evening departures, partly due to connecting trafficc in addition to people departing Toronto..

With VIA moving to a more frequent service, any potential connecting volume is spread out over arrivals throughout the evening. So it would take more than one late evening departure to be marketable. But especially with so much going on in Toronto in evenings, there is plenty of reason to believe those 23:00ish slots are marketable again..... and indeed GO has somewhat taken up the slack, with people parking at Oshawa or Aldershot. What is missing is the 18:00ish inbound trains that could bring people in for the evening....

The wasteful thing about the new train is the need to haul empty seats all the way from Ottawa so they can be filled from Cobourg or Port Hope to Union. Very poor revenue potential on a seat-mile basis. VIA is doing what it can to honour this clientele, and that's commendable - but there may be better ways to achieve this.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

If there is a need for an overnight service, it should be predicated on a need now or in the short term, rather than deferred on the basis of a high or higher speed service that is not likely to be delivered in any reasonable timeframe based on progress to date. Use the best of the remaining HEP2s at a gentle pace and if HFR/HSR does actually appear, well then not much of value will be scrapped.

We also have to bear in mind that some track time does need to be allocated for inspections and routine works, which running truly overnight services on single track to and from Ottawa would surely at least complicate.

The problem with that assumption is it assumes there is space for it in the existing slots. There likely isn't/ That is why for it to make a comeback, HFR is needed.And, isn't that the point of HFR - running trains all the time as much as is needed? We can sit here and debate the merits,but until HFR is done, it won;t come back.

 

[crs1026]

The problem with that assumption is it assumes there is space for it in the existing slots. There likely isn't/ That is why for it to make a comeback, HFR is needed.And, isn't that the point of HFR - running trains all the time as much as is needed? We can sit here and debate the merits,but until HFR is done, it won;t come back.

A slow-moving overnight train that has much slack in the schedule may be much easier for CN to handle, and they might even appreciate VIA burning (wasting?) one of its rationed slots on this schedule as opposed to adding one fast train during daylight.

The impediment to an overnight train is the amount of overhead it demands - stations that need to stay open all night, yarding and turning, operations oversight, etc - for a very small number of passengers. Three full sleeping cars (which is about as much as VIA ever ran Montreal-Toronto) equates to one car of riders on that early morning day train, and only a partial load for a Dash-8 with an 06:00 departure.

Should HFR appear, the challenge will be even greater, since VIA will need the overnight lull to do track maintenance.

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

I kind of figured DND out, but it didn‘t make any sense to me since I had never come across NRE (not just as an acronym, but also as a concept). Maybe keep in mind in the future that this is an urbanist and not a military or public procurement forum and that not commonly-used and widely understood or intuitive abbreviations are best avoided…

I would think it is well understood what DND is. As for NRE, as an engineer, I was a little surprised that its use isn't common knowledge. It certainly is used by more than those in military or public procurement. It is also widely used in private industry.

A better way of explaining NRE, is that it is a one time cost. Bringing it back to VIA Rail, the costs (labour, materials and land aquasition) associated of designing and building HFR track and stations is NRE. This cost can be amortized over all of the trains that are run for years to come. As a result, the more passengers that can take advantage of that NRE, the less it costs per passenger.

 

[crs1026]

NRE is more of a dirty word in some places than others. There's nothing wrong with Project Engineering, which is just a sensible modification of something that has been amortised over a past life and can be life extended to meet new and forecast needs. A great deal of the engineering needed to refocus VIA's activities, or move to HFR, falls in this category.

However if you are building Littoral warships and before they are commissioned you already need to modify them because their mission has been rewritten, then yes NRE is a bad thing.

A rail example would be having built infrastructure to accommodate a train or service, and now you have decided not to run that service and you decide to pull the signalling or crossovers out. There are a few of those around.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

I would think it is well understood what DND is. As for NRE, as an engineer, I was a little surprised that its use isn't common knowledge. It certainly is used by more than those in military or public procurement. It is also widely used in private industry.

You should know your audience and stick to abbreviations which are commonly used in this forum. I invite you and @kEiThZ to search the 1152 pages of comments in this thread to find any mentions of DND and NRE prior to this week…
(And yes, the search function absolutely sucks for three-letter acronyms)