VIA Rail

[micheal_can]

You are proposing this for VIA? Firstly, whatever system VIA uses for booking and fare management would have to be compatible across their system, or they would have to have different systems depending of the need and facilities of their various routes. What works in Kingston won't likely work in Gillam.

Do you (and others) propose to hire fare inspectors or load this onto the existing and, form what I have heard, limited on-board staff? On-board fare inspectors on GO aren't part of the operating crew, and can cover multiple trains in one shift. I'm not sure how that could be managed even in corridor service.

Unlike GO, and unlike other Via service, The Corridor has multiple trains serving the same stations. Inspectors could get on at Belleville, inspect till Kingston, get off, then board a train going to Belleville and get off there, for example.

Even if VIA wanted to do such a thing, it would need legislation. GO offences are enabled by the Metrolinx Act, and enforcement personnel are designated as Provincial Offences Officers. I haven't researched it, but it seems any fare offences in VIA would have to be created under the Railways Safety Act. Enforcement personnel would have to be somehow empowered to enforce the Act. Currently, I believe the only people who can do that are police constables appointed under the Act ('Railway Police'). There is no authority for VIA to appoint enforcement personnel since VIA has no enabling legislation. Once you create a public-facing enforcement service, you create the need for specific HR, training, court liaison (across many jurisdictions), supervision, and on and on.

All quite do-able of course, provided Parliament is up for it, but outside of VIA's wheelhouse.

This is the very truth of everything. Via is beholden to the government.

 

[reaperexpress]

I would love to hear examples for what services you are exactly comparing and why you think they operate with „exactly the same service model“ for the purposes of this discussion here…

Well just to focus on the Netherlands since I commuted on NS for several years, you tap in and out just like on the GO train. It does not matter what type of train you use to get there, it could be a commuter train (Sprinter) or an Intercity train. It can even be an Intercity Express / Direct train if you pay a €2.60 surcharge.

There is no difference in seat reservations, ticketing, method of fare collection, boarding process, service classes, etc. The service model is exactly the same between intercity trains and commuter trains.

 

[kEiThZ]

The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, some railways in Japan

So countries that are the size of the GTA where their "intercity" trains are closer to regional trains in real-life application.

 

[reaperexpress]

So countries that are the size of the GTA where their "intercity" trains are closer to regional trains in real-life application.

Ottawa to Montreal is less than 200 km and the train takes 2 hours. Like Paige pointed out, that travel time is shorter than some GO Transit services.

 

[crs1026]

So countries that are the size of the GTA where their "intercity" trains are closer to regional trains in real-life application.

Actually, the tranche of Dutch trains that are branded "Intercity" is almost exactly what we have been talking about with Vanilla HFR. Maybe if they added cart service....we'd be there.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Ottawa to Montreal is less than 200 km and the train takes 2 hours. Like Paige pointed out, that travel time is shorter than some GO Transit services.

Ottawa to Montreal isn't a service by itself though. It's part of a system. One could argue Toronto-London or Toronto-Kingston are also regional services. But they aren't distinct services from the rest of the Corridor.

Actually, the tranche of Dutch trains that are branded "Intercity" is almost exactly what we have been talking about with Vanilla HFR. Maybe if they added cart service....we'd be there.

- Paul

I agree that HFR would run differently from today. Not sure, it's a good idea to run them exactly like GO. Especially since GO is evolving to RER with 15 min departures.

 

[micheal_can]

Ottawa to Montreal isn't a service by itself though. It's part of a system. One could argue Toronto-London or Toronto-Kingston are also regional services. But they aren't distinct services from the rest of the Corridor.

They are branded as one service, but they are distinct. How? Well, try to go from Windsor to Quebec city without getting off the train. Now, try going from Toronto to Vancouver, or Montreal to Halifax. Those other 2 are branded as one service and they are one service.

 

[crs1026]

I agree that HFR would run differently from today. Not sure, it's a good idea to run them exactly like GO. Especially since GO is evolving to RER with 15 min departures.

The point I was making was more, a high frequency service doesn't necessarily have to have reserved seats and a lot of access control.

The Dutch intercity trainsets are electric loco on each end with conventionalish cars in between. High platform and electric doors, roughly 8-12 cars in a trainset. Get yourself on and off. Doors will close when the chime sounds. 100 mph ish between major cities only. Tap on and off at the turnstiles. I think I recall cursory ticket inspection on board.

OK, HFR probably should have a VIA style Business Class - the Dutch first class is only marginally nicer inside than coach. Venture coach is closer to Eurostar than NS Intercity, so we can certainly market and enjoy the upscale amenities.

I may have related this before, but when we were taking the train from Brussels to Amsterdam last spring, I turned up at the platform 15 minutes or so ahead of our train - seemed about the right timing to be safe, by North American standards. Looked at the overhead display and discovered there would be five mainline train arrivals and departures before our train.... all from that one platform.

Repeating again, I do understand that the Toronto and Montreal platforms may not be this flexible. But repeating again, that's a mark against us rather than a standard that we should accept as sufficient. The explanations are credible excuses, but not design excellence. I really would like to see some platform reconfiguration. And Brussels Midi is really not all that different in platform access than Montreal Central.

- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

The Dutch intercity trainsets are electric loco on each end with conventionalish cars in between. High platform and electric doors, roughly 8-12 cars in a trainset. Get yourself on and off. Doors will close when the chime sounds. 100 mph ish between major cities only. Tap on and off at the turnstiles. I think I recall cursory ticket inspection on board.

An update on this point: nearly the entire NS fleet now consists of EMUs, including the vast majority of Intercity trains. The only remaining domestic locomotive sets are the 2x Bombardier Traxx + 7-9x single-deck coache sets used on some Intercity Direct services from Amsterdam to Brussels, and Den Haag to Eindhoven. Those sets are already being replaced by new Alstom Corradia Stream "ICNG" EMUs, which should fully replace them within the next year or two. Then the only remaining locomotives in the NS's fleet will be the Siemens Vectron electric locomotives used to pull foreign coaches on international services (DB Intercity, ÖBB/SBB Nightjet).

The smallest intercity trains are the 3-car single-deck "Koploper" ICM EMUs with 225 seats.

The above will be replaced by 5-car single-deck Alstom Corradia ICNG sets, with 256 seats.

The largest intercity trains are the 12-car bilevel VIRM EMUs, with 1200 seats. This is considerably less than the 1800 seats of a 12-car GO Transit set due to the larger legroom and inclusion of first class (2+1 configuration). The coach dimensions are roughly the same apart from the lower headroom in NL.

 

[kEiThZ]

They are branded as one service, but they are distinct. How? Well, try to go from Windsor to Quebec city without getting off the train.

Having to change a train doesn't make a distinct service. When you change trains at Yonge-Bloor, you're still on the TTC.

 

[micheal_can]

Having to change a train doesn't make a distinct service. When you change trains at Yonge-Bloor, you're still on the TTC.

Having to change trains at Union an Central Station so that you can go Vancouver - Halifax... You are still on Via, but different lines. Now, if we go back to the interlining days,I'd agree.

 

[kEiThZ]

The point I was making was more, a high frequency service doesn't necessarily have to have reserved seats and a lot of access control.

I have experienced the European regional commuter model where you can stand on long distance trains. I'm not sure Transport Canada even permits this in Canada. And if they aren't going to allow standing, I don't see the point of not having reserved seats.

As for access control, I think that will change if there is platform and station redesigns. Especially for HFR. And especially if there's a need to share with GO RER running every 5-15 mins.

the Dutch first class is only marginally nicer inside than coach.

In Europe, First Class is between Coach and Business Class. It's the latter that is the highest class. First Class is something along to Premium Economy on airlines.

I really would like to see some platform reconfiguration.

I thought this was part of RER. If not, it really needs to happen. With VIA, I can't believe they redid the Ottawa train shed and didn't substantially reconfigure with wider middle platforms.

 

[kEiThZ]

Having to change trains at Union an Central Station so that you can go Vancouver - Halifax... You are still on Via, but different lines. Now, if we go back to the interlining days,I'd agree.

Your VIA services are interlined. It's all on one itinerary. But it's different services. It's not like you can book the same sleeper service from one end of Canada to the other. When you change between one subway line to another, you're still getting the same level of service.

 

[micheal_can]

Your VIA services are interlined. It's all on one itinerary. But it's different services. It's not like you can book the same sleeper service from one end of Canada to the other. When you change between one subway line to another, you're still getting the same level of service.

I get what you mean.

 

[kEiThZ]

I thought ÖBB Nightjet was going to be a gamechanger and could maybe serve as a model for VIA long distance services. But then you see posts like this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1734361057018126773

https://twitter.com/x/status/1734367524693610625