VIA Rail

[smallspy]

Except a Venture trainset is pretty saleable to a desperate government compared to LRCs, HEPs and Rens. That said, it is the other Canadian Venture customer I think possible if not probable to be selling at some point.

Is it really, though?

Talgo had two (and a bit) brand new sets of equipment lying around for the better part of 10 years, and had to sell them to an organization in Nigeria rather than anyone in North America.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

Except a Venture trainset is pretty saleable to a desperate government compared to LRCs, HEPs and Rens. That said, it is the other Canadian Venture customer I think possible if not probable to be selling at some point.

VIA‘s contract with VIA does not just include the rolling stock, but also the maintenance. That means that VIA owes Siemens all maintenance fees for the next 30 years or so. At the same time, the guaranteed availability means that the owner of the fleet cannot just modify the fleet or alter its configuration at will (recall the discussion we had recently about the impossibility of having a Siemens trainset haul a few extra HEP2 cars). Furthermore, the new owner would have to pay Siemens to build a new maintenance facility wherever these trains are to be deployed.

Any attempt to move the Siemens trainsets away from Montreal and Toronto would be economic insanity and that‘s why I say that the presence of the Siemens fleet is a life insurance for continued Corridor operations for as long as the contract with Siemens runs…

 

[micheal_can]

VIA‘s contract with VIA does not just include the rolling stock, but also the maintenance. That means that VIA owes Siemens the maintenance fee for the next 30 years or so. At the same time, the guaranteed availability means that the owner of the fleet cannot just modify the fleet or alter its configuration at will (recall the discussions we had about having a Siemens trainset haul a few extra HEP2 cars). Furthermore, the new owner would have to pay Siemens to build a new maintenance facility wherever these trains are to be deployed.

Any attempt to move the Siemens trainsets away from Montreal and Toronto would be economic insanity and that‘s why I say that the presence of the Siemens fleet is a life insurance for continued Corridor operations for as long as the cobtract with Siemens runs…

So, for the next 30 years, these could not be used elsewhere in Canada? If some miracle happened and a government wanted to put Corridor like service elsewhere, would it be near impossible to use these? Would that also mean any suggestions of HSR being picked over HFR is all but dead?

 

[crs1026]

So, for the next 30 years, these could not be used elsewhere in Canada? If some miracle happened and a government wanted to put Corridor like service elsewhere, would it be near impossible to use these? Would that also mean any suggestions of HSR being picked over HFR is all but dead?

Nobody said, absolutely impossible. But the steps required would be
- Renegotiate the contract with Siemens to enable and implement maintenance of the new operation
- Construct a Siemens facility to maintain the trains in the desired part of the country
- Staff said facility
- Operate it as an additional element of the Siemens maintenance contract

If one were proposing to remove sets from the Corridor fleet and shift them to other areas, there would be obvious impacts - the overall operation would cost more (more maintenance bases, parts inventory, travel and management costs for the same sized fleet) and the revenue derived/value in the Corridor would fall (fewer trains to offer service with, but just as much overhead to pay for). It's not a scenario anyone would find constructive.

If one were proposing to buy additional trainsets for that second corridor, that expense and the new maintenance facility(s) would simply be contained in the startup cost of such a new corridor or route. That cost would, clearly, be substantial - not saing it can't happen, but you can see why no one is rushing into initiatiting new corridors. Very, very expensive.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Is it really, though?

Talgo had two (and a bit) brand new sets of equipment lying around for the better part of 10 years, and had to sell them to an organization in Nigeria rather than anyone in North America.

Dan

The sorry tale of the Talgos can be found over 39 pages at railroad.net here, but suffice it to say:

• Wisconsin political machinations
• The fit out of the 8s as commuter rather business (reducing attractiveness for Cascades)
• The different staffing needs for the Talgos vs other equipment like Superliner or Horizon.
• There was an issue about an FRA waiver regarding door interlocks for the WI 8s, which likely became more concerning after...
• The Point Defiance crash, which was a Series 6 but likely doused any enthusiasm for WA/OR buying any more Talgos
• There was talk of them going to Surfliner for a while but that fizzled out, perhaps because of maintenance facilities (since the Talgo coaches have shared bogies)

The long-term replacement for the Series 6s from 2026 will be 48 Venture (Airo) coaches.

 

[micheal_can]

Nobody said, absolutely impossible. But the steps required would be
- Renegotiate the contract with Siemens to enable and implement maintenance of the new operation
- Establish a Siemens facility to maintain the trains in the desired part of the country
- Staff said facility
- Operate it as an additional element of the Siemens maintenance contract

If one were proposing to remove sets from the Corridor fleet and shift them to other areas, there would be obvious impacts - the overall operation would cost more (more maintenance bases, parts inventory, travel and management costs) and the revenue derived/value in the Corridor would fall (fewer trains to offer service with, but just as much overhead to pay for). It's not a scenario anyone would find constructive.

If one were proposing to buy additional trainsets for that second corridor, that expense and the new maintenance facility(s) would simply be contained in the startup cost of such a new corridor or route. That cost would, clearly, be substantial - not saing it can't happen, but you can see why no one is rushing into initiatiting new corridors. Very, very expensive.

- Paul

Since there have been credible, albeit unfunded proposals for HFR to be HSR, which if that happens, these trains would become obsolete. If that were to happen, it might be better to use them if Via ever decides to expand service elsewhere. To be fair, we have at least 5-10 years before the HFR corridor is open for revenue service, so who knows what will happen by then.

 

[dowlingm]

VIA‘s contract with VIA does not just include the rolling stock, but also the maintenance. That means that VIA owes Siemens all maintenance fees for the next 30 years or so. At the same time, the guaranteed availability means that the owner of the fleet cannot just modify the fleet or alter its configuration at will (recall the discussion we had recently about the impossibility of having a Siemens trainset haul a few extra HEP2 cars). Furthermore, the new owner would have to pay Siemens to build a new maintenance facility wherever these trains are to be deployed.

Any attempt to move the Siemens trainsets away from Montreal and Toronto would be economic insanity and that‘s why I say that the presence of the Siemens fleet is a life insurance for continued Corridor operations for as long as the contract with Siemens runs…

All of that is true but Siemens has lots of customers in the US now, some of which have such facilities/agreements.

As I said, I think it's more likely that the seller will be Ontario not VIA/Canada, and the question will be whether VIA has the money to buy them in and use them, or let them go/be outbid like the Texas RDCs. Some of this may depend on who is President in the United States, and therefore how much grant money is flowing to agencies, and the ability of Siemens production line to keep new rolling stock coming.

 

[crs1026]

Since there have been credible, albeit unfunded proposals for HFR to be HSR, which if that happens, these trains would become obsolete. If that were to happen, it might be better to use them if Via ever decides to expand service elsewhere. To be fair, we have at least 5-10 years before the HFR corridor is open for revenue service, so who knows what will happen by then.

VIA will still need a fleet to operate the current local services. Hopefully that business is expanding.

I would not spend much time worrying about stranded assets.

If other corridors are proposed, an additional equipment order to cover its needs should be part of the plan.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

All of that is true but Siemens has lots of customers in the US now, some of which have such facilities/agreements.

My understanding is that the highly customized configuration and specification of the VIA trainsets (HEP voltage comes to mind) would make them highly unattractive for most potential buyers…

As I said, I think it's more likely that the seller will be Ontario not VIA/Canada, and the question will be whether VIA has the money to buy them in and use them, or let them go/be outbid like the Texas RDCs. Some of this may depend on who is President in the United States, and therefore how much grant money is flowing to agencies, and the ability of Siemens production line to keep new rolling stock coming.

As we‘ve seen with these RDCs, there are some insane bidders out there, but given the tiny size of these ONTC trainsets and them being mostly identical with VIA‘s future Corridor fleet (and already maintained at Siemens‘ TMC facility), I don‘t think that any sane railroad would attempt to outbid VIA, as VIA undoubtedly would have the lowest cost of integrating them into its existing operations…

 

[micheal_can]

VIA will still need a fleet to operate the current local services. Hopefully that business is expanding.

I would not spend much time worrying about stranded assets.

If other corridors are proposed, an additional equipment order to cover its needs should be part of the plan.

- Paul

True. If we look at existing trains per day, if HSR is built, will there still be the same need for the same number of trains per day?
Personally, I feel that the local service will be reduced. For example, there are currently 15 trains each way through Kingston. I would suspect that would drop to less than 10 once HFR/HSR comes. Hopefully what will happen is Via and CN get an agreement for the most ideal times for Via to maximize the fewer times.

My understanding is that the highly customized configuration and specification of the VIA trainsets (HEP voltage comes to mind) would make them highly unattractive for most potential buyers…

So, the best purchaser would be if ON wanted more for any long distance service in the province?

 

[kEiThZ]

I know that the Corridor is a money maker to some degree. I saw nothing that shows there would be any dividing up of Via. Can you show me specifically where that is?

Go read the HFR docs. And read the part where the winning bidder takes over the entire Corridor. Not just the HFR line. This has been covered several times in this thread already.

 

[micheal_can]

Go read the HFR docs. And read the part where the winning bidder takes over the entire Corridor. Not just the HFR line. This has been covered several times in this thread already.

As I understood that, Via would still be the overall owner, but the operations and maintenance would be the winning bidder. Kinda like how Bombardier is the actual operators of the WCE, but Translink still owns it.

 

[kEiThZ]

Sounds strangely familiar to your day job.

Indeed. That's why I know exactly how they think.

As I understood that, Via would still be the overall owner, but the operations and maintenance would be the winning bidder. Kinda like how Bombardier is the actual operators of the WCE, but Translink still owns it.

You thought wrong. HFR is now a joint Transport Canada and CIB project. VIA has no say in it. VIA will not be the owner or have any involvement in the Corridor after the contractor takes over. This process is specifically designed to separate the Corridor from VIA permanently, and reduce VIA to being an operator of long distance and regional trains. Going to be interesting to see a smaller VIA still needing the same amount of subsidies.

 

[micheal_can]

You thought wrong. HFR is now a joint Transport Canada and CIB project. VIA has no say in it. VIA will not be the owner or have any involvement in the Corridor after the contractor takes over. This process is specifically designed to separate the Corridor from VIA permanently, and reduce VIA to being an operator of long distance and regional trains. Going to be interesting to see a smaller VIA still needing the same amount of subsidies.

Then I have misunderstood the scope of the project.

 

[crs1026]

Then I have misunderstood the scope of the project.

For the record - the explanation of who's who is here.

However - you can be forgiven for not getting the whole picture - when Ottawa makes statements such as here...

Later that year, VIA HFR – VIA TGF Inc. was created as a new wholly owned subsidiary operating at arm's length from VIA Rail to manage the development and delivery of HFR and act as a dedicated project office.

In whose version of corporate governance would a wholly-owned subsidiary operate at arm's length from its owner?

Clearly, the softly spoken rules of the road are, VIA people are to keep their noses out of HFR unless asked. Another slightly different version of the arrangement is available in the VIA HFR FAQ's - which very much aligns to what @kEiThZ was saying.

To develop and implement the HFR project, Canada incorporated VIA HFR – VIA TGF Inc. on November 29, 2022 as a wholly owned subsidiary of VIA Rail.

VIA HFR will oversee and manage the implementation and delivery of the Co-Development Phase. It will act as the project authority and a strong public sector counterparty to the eventual private-sector development partner (PDP). As it scales up, VIA HFR will take over the leadership of key project activities and will work collaboratively with the private partner to co-develop and optimize the HFR project.

VIA HFR, a Crown corporation, reports directly to Parliament through the Minister of Transport. It operates at arm’s length from the government with the flexibility, independence and corporate agility required to advance this large infrastructure project.

Once HFR is in service, VIA Rail is expected to continue operating its long-distance services from Toronto to Vancouver and from Montreal to Halifax.

PS - I love the "at arm's length from government" claim. Some of us were born at night, but it wasn't last night.

- Paul