VIA Rail

[roger1818]

Edit: Maybe one more final thing to add: Ottawa=>Toronto is now at 8 departures on Saturdays and 9 on Sundays, which is one departure more than ever and Toronto=>Ottawa is now 10 departures on Sundays, which is even two departures more than ever:
View attachment 515398

Could you show a similar chart for Montreal-Ottawa? I would love to see an increase of the westbound Saturday service. Even in 2019 there were only 3 trains a day (oddly there were 4 trains eastbound). Sundays had 5 trains both ways and, as previously discussed, weekdays had 6 each way. This route is mostly on track owned by VIA, but, as also previously discussed, it has to deal with the congestion at Coteau.

 

[Frank_Lee]

Heard this on the radio yesterday: https://ici.radio-canada.ca/ohdio/p...sodes/786012/rattrapage-jeudi-26-octobre-2023

French Language interview of Martin Imbleau. For what it's worth he does come across as enthusiastic.

 

[crs1026]

It's interesting how Via manages to change the timetables between Toronto, Ottawa and Montréal so quickly, meanwhile the timetable Via 87 (Toronto-Kitchener-London-Sarnia) still hasn't been updated to reflect changes to track speeds which occurred three years ago.

Quite apart from VIA's obtuse PR response, there is a point to be made here.... we may think of HFR as a backbone between Montreal Ottawa and Toronto....but the importance of the Windsor-London-Toronto leg of the corridor seems to be getting lost here.

One wonders why more trains aren't being squeezed in here as well.

Quite possibly, the 2008 track enhancements east of Toronto opened the door for an agreement with CN more than we may appreciate.

Moving to a separate corridor is just as compelling west of Toronto and the Kitchener route is available. I wonder why we are hearing so little about it, especially given the promises Ford made last election.

- Paul

 

[TerryJohnson]

Quite apart from VIA's obtuse PR response, there is a point to be made here.... we may think of HFR as a backbone between Montreal Ottawa and Toronto....but the importance of the Windsor-London-Toronto leg of the corridor seems to be getting lost here.

One wonders why more trains aren't being squeezed in here as well.

Quite possibly, the 2008 track enhancements east of Toronto opened the door for an agreement with CN more than we may appreciate.

Moving to a separate corridor is just as compelling west of Toronto and the Kitchener route is available. I wonder why we are hearing so little about it, especially given the promises Ford made last election.

- Paul

We're beset by unfinished proposals in SWO. The CTC upgrade and siding added to the Kitchener line as part of Harper's "Economic Action Plan" were never used as intended, and services cut back instead by Harper's cuts.
VIA did look at HFR is SWO before 2014, but dropped it from the scope because of the McGuinty/Murray HSR surprise announcement. That HSR study got binned by Ford, but London got a once-daily four-hour GO train as a bad consolation prize.
Now because Ford made the promise to expand the GO service in election 2022, which has now been flip-flopped, the Kitchener route is not in the scope of the Transport Canada / CPCS study of expanded VIA service, which focuses on the Brantford route and expanding frequencies to London, Windsor, and Sarnia. However, Alghabra was calling this a potential phase two of HFR... which could be decades away.
Meanwhile, the bus companies are try to fill the gaps on core routes that can easily support hourly rail service, rather than serving as feeders.

 

[Urban Sky]

One wonders why more trains aren't being squeezed in here as well.

1) lack of equipment (VIA got outbid on these RDCs which went to Vermont instead)
2) lack of slots

Moving to a separate corridor is just as compelling west of Toronto and the Kitchener route is available. I wonder why we are hearing so little about it, especially given the promises Ford made last election.

- Paul

I doubt there is much of a point in pursuing anything West of Toronto as long as Metrolinx is still busy figuring out what they want to do and that they need to make it happen…

 

[trainfanjacob8]

We're beset by unfinished proposals in SWO. The CTC upgrade and siding added to the Kitchener line as part of Harper's "Economic Action Plan" were never used as intended, and services cut back instead by Harper's cuts.
VIA did look at HFR is SWO before 2014, but dropped it from the scope because of the McGuinty/Murray HSR surprise announcement. That HSR study got binned by Ford, but London got a once-daily four-hour GO train as a bad consolation prize.
Now because Ford made the promise to expand the GO service in election 2022, which has now been flip-flopped, the Kitchener route is not in the scope of the Transport Canada / CPCS study of expanded VIA service, which focuses on the Brantford route and expanding frequencies to London, Windsor, and Sarnia. However, Alghabra was calling this a potential phase two of HFR... which could be decades away.
Meanwhile, the bus companies are try to fill the gaps on core routes that can easily support hourly rail service, rather than serving as feeders.

I believe the future of expanded rail service in SWO lies with the North Line: Metrolinx owns half of it, there’s minimal freight traffic (unlike the South Line).

If rumours from current railway employees are true, CN wants to sell their portion of the Guelph Sub, and Metrolinx doesn’t have a keen interest in expanding service west of Kitchener (the London pilot project was apparently only for political reasons).

VIA has said multiple times in their reports that they would like to expand service on the North Line. As user Urban Sky says, time slots and equipment shortages pose a challenge to this. Furthermore, unless they get additional funds from the federal government, I can’t see VIA purchasing the remainder of the Guelph Sub, or paying CN to replace the bolted rail.

My pipe dream is for increased speeds on the North Line, and adding VIA trains from Windsor to Toronto via Kitchener. But I am also realistic: none of this is happening if/when funds are available, and agreements are made between CN, VIA, and Metrolinx.

 

[enter username]

Still no bike baggage allowed on the new Siemens trains. An eta in an earlier convo was given to me as 2025. I imagine the issue is partly IT and partly managing expectations, but would have been nice if gradually reintroduced

 

[smallspy]

1) lack of equipment (VIA got outbid on these RDCs which went to Vermont instead)

I will agree with you on this. Hopefully the arrival of the new fleet will ameliorate the situation somewhat.

2) lack of slots

I'm not sure how true this one is. Unlike the Kingston Sub, the Dundas Sub is far, far quieter, with approximately half-to-two-thirds of the freight traffic and well less than half of the VIA traffic.

While Bayview Junction and the west end of the Oakville Sub is a bit of a chokepoint, it's also slated for futher improvement.

I doubt there is much of a point in pursuing anything West of Toronto as long as Metrolinx is still busy figuring out what they want to do and that they need to make it happen…

While this is a fair point, much like has been bandied about with cooperation between the freight railways, cooperation between VIA and GO could lead to very serious improvements on the rest of the Guelph Sub - especially if the remaining section is sold by CN and the retched "CTC" system that is installed on it gets replaced.

Dan

 

[Northern Light]

While Bayview Junction and the west end of the Oakville Sub is a bit of a chokepoint, it's also slated for futher improvement.

Dan

If you might elaborate on the bolded, it would be appreciated.

What improvements are in the offing? and What impact will those have?

 

[Urban Sky]

Could you show a similar chart for Montreal-Ottawa? I would love to see an increase of the westbound Saturday service. Even in 2019 there were only 3 trains a day (oddly there were 4 trains eastbound). Sundays had 5 trains both ways and, as previously discussed, weekdays had 6 each way. This route is mostly on track owned by VIA, but, as also previously discussed, it has to deal with the congestion at Coteau.

Here it is (with currently 5 departures every weekday and 4 on weekends), omitting the timetable periods where the count remained changed:

Note: above table includes the ex-CP services via Montebello. I might upload a different version later, which excludes them, as they were too slow to be considered a real alternative to services via Alexandria or Rigaud. Actually, turns out I can’t because my built-in function to exclude “indirect” trains would also exclude T-O-M trains…

 

[Urban Sky]

I'm not sure how true this one is. Unlike the Kingston Sub, the Dundas Sub is far, far quieter, with approximately half-to-two-thirds of the freight traffic and well less than half of the VIA traffic.

While Bayview Junction and the west end of the Oakville Sub is a bit of a chokepoint, it's also slated for futher improvement.


While this is a fair point, much like has been bandied about with cooperation between the freight railways, cooperation between VIA and GO could lead to very serious improvements on the rest of the Guelph Sub - especially if the remaining section is sold by CN and the retched "CTC" system that is installed on it gets replaced.

Dan

In my personal observation, even though CN seems to honour any previous commitments (e.g. letting VIA return to pre-Covid frequencies), they appear to very reluctant to making new commitments, to which they would then feel bound in the future. Sure, coughing up cash for whatever improvements CN might have in mind could extract the desired frequencies, but given that the preferred route for any HFR-style improvements will always be the Guelph Sub, any investments into the Dundas Sub would be a sunk cost...

If you might elaborate on the bolded, it would be appreciated.

What improvements are in the offing? and What impact will those have?

I assume that he alluded to the fact that the additional frequencies to Hamilton or Niagara Falls desired by Metrolinx will require capacity upgrades in the Bayview area...

 

[micheal_can]

I believe the future of expanded rail service in SWO lies with the North Line: Metrolinx owns half of it, there’s minimal freight traffic (unlike the South Line).

If rumours from current railway employees are true, CN wants to sell their portion of the Guelph Sub, and Metrolinx doesn’t have a keen interest in expanding service west of Kitchener (the London pilot project was apparently only for political reasons).

VIA has said multiple times in their reports that they would like to expand service on the North Line. As user Urban Sky says, time slots and equipment shortages pose a challenge to this. Furthermore, unless they get additional funds from the federal government, I can’t see VIA purchasing the remainder of the Guelph Sub, or paying CN to replace the bolted rail.

My pipe dream is for increased speeds on the North Line, and adding VIA trains from Windsor to Toronto via Kitchener. But I am also realistic: none of this is happening if/when funds are available, and agreements are made between CN, VIA, and Metrolinx.

For those that know the line better, could it be easily be converted into HSR corridor? Is there enough space for at least 1 freight line and 2 HSR lines?

 

[crs1026]

For those that know the line better, could it be easily be converted into HSR corridor? Is there enough space for at least 1 freight line and 2 HSR lines?

Any rail line can be widened and multitracked…. Just bring gobs of money. But that’s unlikely to happen.

The Guelph Sub west of Guelph is straight and can be made much faster, but I doubt we will see it fully grade separated. Very definitely it can be brought to the standard of the VIA owned lines in eastern Ontario, that are good for 160 km/hr. I’m not sure why one would try for more - look how well those lines work.. If we had that, with passing sidings, we’d be waay ahead of today.

Let’s stay in the realm of ‘reasonably achievable’

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

Here it is (with currently 5 departures every weekday and 4 on weekends), omitting the timetable periods where the count remained changed:
View attachment 516201

Note: above table includes the ex-CP services via Montebello. I might upload a different version later, which excludes them, as they were too slow to be considered a real alternative to services via Alexandria or Rigaud. Actually, turns out I can’t because my built-in function to exclude “indirect” trains would also exclude T-O-M trains…

Fascinating! I didn’t realize there were so many trains between Montreal and Ottawa at one point. Hard to believe that for a brief period in 1967 there were 14 trains on Saturdays. I’m assuming that city pair was by far the busiest in the country, with Toronto-Montreal being a distant second

Granted, those trains were split among multiple.(3?) different routes, some of which, as you said, weren’t suitable for end to end travel. Presumably, they also used in two different stations in Montreal.

Rather than removing the slower routes, It would be interesting to see each route on different lines of the sheet

 

[micheal_can]

Any rail line can be widened and multitracked…. Just bring gobs of money. But that’s unlikely to happen.

The Guelph Sub west of Guelph is straight and can be made much faster, but I doubt we will see it fully grade separated. Very definitely it can be brought to the standard of the VIA owned lines in eastern Ontario, that are good for 160 km/hr. I’m not sure why one would try for more - look how well those lines work.. If we had that, with passing sidings, we’d be waay ahead of today.

Let’s stay in the realm of ‘reasonably achievable’

- Paul

I base that off the idea that the Havelock Sub may become HSR depending on what is decided. with the HFR tender.

Even buying it as is and operating it with Via having priority would be a good start.