VIA Rail

[cplchanb]

Which is what they want to achieve by building their own corridor....right?

Honestly most people won't see past the combined security and additional travel time of air but rather more on the base travel time. The fact is that toronto and Montreal is 1hr. 4.5hrs is still a huge difference. Last time I went to Montreal pre pandemic it took me 20 min to get to yyz, 1hr before flight and 30min to get from yul to city centre. So that's still under 3hrs total. Throw in 15% buffer and it's still under 4hours.

Id say they need to aim for under 4hrs or even 3.5h avg if they ever want to make deep inroads into the air pie

 

[Bordercollie]

Honestly most people won't see past the combined security and additional travel time of air but rather more on the base travel time. The fact is that toronto and Montreal is 1hr. 4.5hrs is still a huge difference. Last time I went to Montreal pre pandemic it took me 20 min to get to yyz, 1hr before flight and 30min to get from yul to city centre. So that's still under 3hrs total. Throw in 15% buffer and it's still under 4hours.

Id say they need to aim for under 4hrs or even 3.5h avg if they ever want to make deep inroads into the air pie

That might be during non rush hour times. 1 hour to get to Pearson, 20min to Park the car and walk to the terminal. You should at be there two hours before your flight with the line ups of today.

1 hour flight. 20 min to de-plane and 30 minute cab ride to downtown. That's more realistic.
Thats about 4 hours.

 

[DSCToronto]

VIA employees have just given strike notice for midnight on Monday morning, 11th July. My trip to Montreal on 16th may not happen!

 

[cplchanb]

That might be during non rush hour times. 1 hour to get to Pearson, 20min to Park the car and walk to the terminal. You should at be there two hours before your flight with the line ups of today.

1 hour flight. 20 min to de-plane and 30 minute cab ride to downtown. That's more realistic.
Thats about 4 hours.

Fair enough, though that still quite faster than the train. For people in the 905 area without dt traffic that's loads faster still.
It would be a big disadvantage for people in the 905 taking the train since they would need to commute to union station. That would add at least 30min from Markham by cab during non rush

 

[kEiThZ]

Which is what they want to achieve by building their own corridor....right?

Correct.

Honestly most people won't see past the combined security and additional travel time of air but rather more on the base travel time. The fact is that toronto and Montreal is 1hr. 4.5hrs is still a huge difference. Last time I went to Montreal pre pandemic it took me 20 min to get to yyz, 1hr before flight and 30min to get from yul to city centre. So that's still under 3hrs total. Throw in 15% buffer and it's still under 4hours.

Id say they need to aim for under 4hrs or even 3.5h avg if they ever want to make deep inroads into the air pie

Somebody who flies once a year is likely to compare just the ticketed time and not access and pre-boarding times. However, the majority of air travelers are frequent travelers (usually driven by business travel):

New research by climate campaign group Possible, which was published by the BBC, has found that a small number of frequent flyers dominated air travel before the pandemic with the vast majority only traveling domestically. In the United States for example, just 12 perent of people take 66 percent of all flights. That trend is also evident in other developed countries such as the United Kingdom where 15 percent of people take 70 percent of flights. Calls are growing from environmental groups for the implementation of a Frequent Flyer Levy which is a tax that increases the more a person flies each year.

These folks are highly sophisticated travelers who understand how long it takes to travel to the airport, how long it takes to get through security, what the best airport bars are and the food rotation at the Maple Leaf Lounge. I am willing to bet money that a good portion of them start becoming available at 4.5 hrs and that VIA can win an actual majority of them at 4 hrs. Especially when you consider that many of them are on the company's dime and companies are far more likely to consider everything from total cost to emissions these days. High reliability is a prerequisite though. None of the routine delays we see today, are acceptable, to business travelers.

 

[kEiThZ]

That might be during non rush hour times. 1 hour to get to Pearson, 20min to Park the car and walk to the terminal. You should at be there two hours before your flight with the line ups of today.

1 hour flight. 20 min to de-plane and 30 minute cab ride to downtown. That's more realistic.
Thats about 4 hours.

Air Canada says, for domestic flights out of Toronto:

• Check-in and bag drop closes 45 mins before departure;
• Travelers should be at the gate no later than 30 mins before departure; and,
• The gate closes 15 mins before departure.

AC recommends that travelers arrive 2 hrs before departure. However, the average business traveller flying with only a carry-on is most definitely not doing that. They are probably boarding UPE at Union 2 hrs before their flight or getting in their car somewhere in the 905 then and heading to Pearson. They will have checked in by mobile and have their boarding pass on the phone. They get to airport and head straight to security and then the lounge if they have time. Long lines at security don't bother them. If they have status, they get expedited screening. On the other side they are walking off and right to a cab. There's folks who will show up at Pearson 1 hr before boarding (at least before Spring 2022). I would say most of these people are probably in the 3.5-4 hr range for downtown -to-downtown door-to-door travel if you exclude traffic or the current problems with airports.

I don't think a train has to match that travel time to gain marketshare on flying. It just has to be reasonably close (say within 30 mins). And has to be as reliable or better than flying. This is why I say 4.5 hrs is probably the minimum. Let's not forget that VIA suggests being at the station 30 mins before departure. Marketshare gained from there will go up rapidly with every minute of reduction. Under 4 hrs, and I think the majority of Corridor business travelers will be on the train.

Business travelers are also routinely allowed to book VIA One. And in part that is because of the included meal, which the company would normally have to pay for. It's not in VIA's DNA to lead on much, but I sincerely wish they did better on catering in VIA One. They could really use it as a product differentiator against the airlines.

 

[crs1026]

Business travelers are also routinely allowed to book VIA One. And in part that is because of the included meal, which the company would normally have to pay for. It's not in VIA's DNA to lead on much, but I sincerely wish they did better on catering in VIA One. They could really use it as a product differentiator against the airlines.

VIA's Business Class meals are pretty good, actually. I'm not sure that they have to be much better....maybe a bit more substantial.

But the free drinks are probably enough to make up.... not so freely poured as to be a problem, but it's amazing how a small serving of prosecco feels like a $10 value when it costs the pourer much less than that.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

VIA's Business Class meals are pretty good, actually. I'm not sure that they have to be much better....maybe a bit more substantial.

I think they are basically close to International Economy class meals. They should work on making them more like Business class meals given on 4 hr flights. It's a small detail. But I do think regular business pax notice. I wish VIA actually saw catering as a way to improve brand image, rather than obligation.

They need to work on the presentation. Being on a train allows them to offer much better service than on airplanes. The cutlery and dinnerware should be better. The plating should be be better. Instead, it's no better than any Premium Economy flight I've taken.

They need to work on making the meals special the way airlines do. Airlines usually get famous chefs to draw up the menu, emphasizing regional and seasonal ingredients, and design service both at lounges and on-board. VIA meals come across more like, "We signed up for the cheapest package that Cara Foods offered us."

 

[kEiThZ]

Just to show some of what airlines are doing.... Air Canada opened its own café for its business class and high loyalty passengers, that is separate from its lounge and designed more the short haul traveller:

And they got David Hawksworth, literally voted the best chef in Vancouver four times to design their menus at their lounges, the café and onboard. And this is what you get on Premium Economy (not Business) on Air Canada for a 4+ hr flight:

I think there's a tendency with railfans (especially in North America) to dismiss this stuff as unimportant. But if you're going to charge me something that is close to airfare and keep me in that metal box for 5 hrs, I expect about the same treatment or better than what I get on airplane for 5 hrs. Europeans do get this. This is what food is like on a Thalys train:

VIA could really use the opportunity to enhance its brand by doing something special in this space with Canadian chefs and ingredients. Consider what Japan has done with their famous train Bento boxes (Ekiben):

 

[crs1026]

They need to work on making the meals special the way airlines do. Airlines usually get famous chefs to draw up the menu, emphasizing regional and seasonal ingredients, and design service both at lounges and on-board. VIA meals come across more like, "We signed up for the cheapest package that Cara Foods offered us."

I’m completely uninformed about airline meals (beyond knowing that on Westjet you get pretzels in coach, while on Air Canada you only get a look that says “Who do you think you’re flying? This isn’t Westjet, ya know”). But I imagine that there are constraints driven by galley size/layout and crew size. First class on a wide-body long distance flight can apparently be quite lavish. I’m not knowledgeable about what is possible on, say, an A320 or B737.

From what has been published ie floor plans it doesn’t look like the new Siemens equipment has been designed with an eye to improving Business Class meal delivery, but we will see. I do agree that the meal experience is a significant attraction factor, and the better it can be made, the more tickets VIA will sell.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

From what has been published ie floor plans it doesn’t look like the new Siemens equipment has been designed with an eye to improving Business Class meal delivery, but we will see. I do agree that the meal experience is a significant attraction factor, and the better it can be made, the more tickets VIA will sell.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that VIA redesign their galleys or something like that. I don't see this as a facility problem. Flight and rail caterers can still deliver amazing food. You just gotta tell them what it should be. VIA just needs to put in a little more effort into this and maybe spend a few more dollars per plate.

 

[Bordercollie]

Correct.



Somebody who flies once a year is likely to compare just the ticketed time and not access and pre-boarding times. However, the majority of air travelers are frequent travelers (usually driven by business travel):

These folks are highly sophisticated travelers who understand how long it takes to travel to the airport, how long it takes to get through security, what the best airport bars are and the food rotation at the Maple Leaf Lounge. I am willing to bet money that a good portion of them start becoming available at 4.5 hrs and that VIA can win an actual majority of them at 4 hrs. Especially when you consider that many of them are on the company's dime and companies are far more likely to consider everything from total cost to emissions these days. High reliability is a prerequisite though. None of the routine delays we see today, are acceptable, to business travelers.

In Canada I still prefer to take the train if possible unless flying from Billy Bishop, even when travelling for business.

Our company has a rule that you need to travel using the cheapest method possible, and to rent a car if it's cheaper than paying for mileage.

Frankly renting a car is something I want to avoid at all costs. Plus the rental company usually doesn't open until 8am making it impossible to get your day started on time.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that VIA redesign their galleys or something like that. I don't see this as a facility problem. Flight and rail caterers can still deliver amazing food. You just gotta tell them what it should be. VIA just needs to put in a little more effort into this and maybe spend a few more dollars per plate.

Something that would make Sleeper Class more attractive would be lounge access during the time the train is dwelling at the station at places such as Winnipeg and Edmonton. That may entice people to spend more money on Sleeper Class instead of economy. Edmonton doesn't have a lounge or anything, but the staff bought pizza for the passengers waiting for 12 hours for their late train.

 

[Bordercollie]

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that VIA redesign their galleys or something like that. I don't see this as a facility problem. Flight and rail caterers can still deliver amazing food. You just gotta tell them what it should be. VIA just needs to put in a little more effort into this and maybe spend a few more dollars per plate.

Something that would make Sleeper Class more attractive would be lounge access during the time the train is dwelling at the station at places such as Winnipeg and Edmonton. That may entice people to spend more money on Sleeper Class instead of economy. Edmonton doesn't have a lounge or anything, but the staff bought pizza for the passengers waiting for 12

 

[smallspy]

I think they are basically close to International Economy class meals. They should work on making them more like Business class meals given on 4 hr flights. It's a small detail. But I do think regular business pax notice. I wish VIA actually saw catering as a way to improve brand image, rather than obligation.

I strongly disagree with that.

With the very odd exception, my meals in VIA1 have been better and more filling than any meal that I've had on either Cathay Pacific or British Airways premium economy, which are commonly held as some of the best airline meals in their class in the business.

Dan

 

[thenewguy]

I strongly disagree with that.

With the very odd exception, my meals in VIA1 have been better and more filling than any meal that I've had on either Cathay Pacific or British Airways premium economy, which are commonly held as some of the best airline meals in their class in the business.

Dan

I agree with Dan. Some of the best meals I’ve had “in transit” anywhere has been on VIA1. But the quality can be variable. On one trip pre-pandemic they were testing receipts/menus suggested by staff. I had a wonderful curry chicken, which you would not expect. Two weeks ago, on a trip from Quebec City, my wife had a chilled Salmon Salad with a huge piece of poached salmon. My wife declared it was perfectly prepared. A feat that is hard to imagine on a catered train. One last comment, while I have the floor…. If you like a Caesar Cocktail, do order one in VIA1. It’s huge and the staff tend to have a generous pour. If I didn’t know better, I’d swear, they are trying to put you to sleep on purpose!