VIA Rail

[roger1818]

As I said, VIA will use whatever the freight rail operators use for long haul.

And I said I agree with that.

Till that solution emerges and matures, VIA can deploy biofuels (if necessary) with their existing fleet.

Except, at most locations, VIA uses the same refiling facilities as the freight rail operators, so VIA using biofuels outside of the corridor would really only be feasible if the freight operators did the same. I don't want to start the debate on here again, but I don't think that would be as green an option as its proponents like to claim.

And it still is very much up in the air.

Agreed.

For every example of a hydrogen pilot, there's also examples of others:

CN Advances Sustainability Efforts With Wabtec’s Battery-Electric Locomotive | cn.ca

CN Advances Sustainability Efforts With Wabtec’s Battery-Electric Locomotive

www.cn.ca

That is more of a fuel reduction strategy than a fuel replacement strategy, and is very fuel agnostic. The other locomotives in the consist could be powered by diesel, biofuel, hydrogen or even nuclear (once again I am not trying to say any one of those are better than others).

All this to say, I was not trying to say that hydrogen is the best option, but that I am not convinced that biofuel is the easiest and best option for long distance trains.

 

[ssiguy2]

My point was that as hydrogen infrastructure develops as do suppliers, the chances of hydrogen for non-Corridor routes in a given as the distances for battery are far too large and for freight battery is useless except for shunting. US is also already working on hydrogen freight. If the HFR was ready to go than I can see catenary but lets be serious, construction won't start for years and the longer it takes the more viable hydrogen becomes.

Let us also not forget that VIA is a crown corporation and is dependent upon Ottawa for funding and hence Ottawa essentially dictates routes, frequency, where new infrastructure will be built, and rolling stock. "Technically" this is the exclusively VIA's decision but when Ottawa controls all the purse strings, is is Ottawa that sets agenda. With that in mind, Ottawa is spending billions on hydrogen development and expects hydrogen to make up 1/3 of our entire energy needs by 2050 and they will want to get a show piece of hydrogen infrastructure and HFR fits perfectly.

 

[Urban Sky]

My point was that as hydrogen infrastructure develops as do suppliers, the chances of hydrogen for non-Corridor routes in a given as the distances for battery are far too large and for freight battery is useless except for shunting. US is also already working on hydrogen freight. If the HFR was ready to go than I can see catenary but lets be serious, construction won't start for years and the longer it takes the more viable hydrogen becomes.

Let us also not forget that VIA is a crown corporation and is dependent upon Ottawa for funding and hence Ottawa essentially dictates routes, frequency, where new infrastructure will be built, and rolling stock. "Technically" this is the exclusively VIA's decision but when Ottawa controls all the purse strings, is is Ottawa that sets agenda. With that in mind, Ottawa is spending billions on hydrogen development and expects hydrogen to make up 1/3 of our entire energy needs by 2050 and they will want to get a show piece of hydrogen infrastructure and HFR fits perfectly.

Nothing of what you write changes the fact that it would be pure madness to decide how to electrify VIA's operations before the same question has been answered for its host railroads. Regardless of how much of an urgent priority electrifying VIA might be to you, electrifying CN and CP will always remain a much higher priority, because it determines what paths towards full electrification of VIA's operations are economically justifiable and which ones aren't...

 

[ssiguy2]

Whether you think VIA should build catenary or not is a debate worth having. That said, in terms of freight, CP & CP are going hydrogen, That is no longer a question not only because it makes sense but also because of one key point..............there aren't any alternatives. Catenary for tens of thousands of track would bankrupt any freight company and battery is a non-starter bordering on laughable which is why no freight companies are investing in battery except for potential shunting.

For freight {and airplanes, agriculture, mining, steel production, cargo, long-distance trucking & passenger rail} hydrogen is the ONLY clean option. Whether you, or I, like the fact or not doesn't matter, hydrogen is coming because it is the only viable alternative to oil. For all these sectors we either go with blue and/or green hydrogen or we stick with oil...............there is no second option.

 

[Urban Sky]

Whether you think VIA should build catenary or not is a debate worth having. That said, in terms of freight, CP & CP are going hydrogen, That is no longer a question not only because it makes sense but also because of one key point..............there aren't any alternatives. Catenary for tens of thousands of track would bankrupt any freight company and battery is a non-starter bordering on laughable which is why no freight companies are investing in battery except for potential shunting.

For freight {and airplanes, agriculture, mining, steel production, cargo, long-distance trucking & passenger rail} hydrogen is the ONLY clean option. Whether you, or I, like the fact or not doesn't matter, hydrogen is coming because it is the only viable alternative to oil. For all these sectors we either go with blue and/or green hydrogen or we stick with oil...............there is no second option.

And why exactly does this discussion about which path for electrification CN or CP might take have to be discussed in the "VIA Rail" thread?

I would reckon that the "General railway discussions" is a much more suitable thread to discuss which electrification technology is appropriate for the Canadian railway industry:

General railway discussions

Happy new year, everyone! Given that the number of posts in the VIA Rail thread has exploded recently (680 posts in December 2020, i.e. almost 22 posts per day!) and that the creation of a thread dedicated to transport policy discussions did fail to reduce the volume of discussions which relate...

urbantoronto.ca

Thank you!

 

[Bordercollie]

Whether you think VIA should build catenary or not is a debate worth having. That said, in terms of freight, CP & CP are going hydrogen, That is no longer a question not only because it makes sense but also because of one key point..............there aren't any alternatives. Catenary for tens of thousands of track would bankrupt any freight company and battery is a non-starter bordering on laughable which is why no freight companies are investing in battery except for potential shunting.

For freight {and airplanes, agriculture, mining, steel production, cargo, long-distance trucking & passenger rail} hydrogen is the ONLY clean option. Whether you, or I, like the fact or not doesn't matter, hydrogen is coming because it is the only viable alternative to oil. For all these sectors we either go with blue and/or green hydrogen or we stick with oil...............there is no second option.

I believe Amtrak is going to be ordering Siemens train sets with Hybrid Locomotives with a battery car.

This way during Regen they can charge the batteries and save on fuel by running on battery power in tunnels.

 

[roger1818]

I believe Amtrak is going to be ordering Siemens train sets with Hybrid Locomotives with a battery car.

That is correct. According to WorldwideRailfan (referring to both the video and the corrections in show notes), they will be delivered in the third phase of Amtrak's latest deal with Siemens and are scheduled to be delivered in 2029-30. The trains with battery cars will be used on Empire Service, the Ethan Alan Express, the Maple Leaf and the Adirondack (basically all of the daytime routes that go to/through Albany- Rensselaer). My guess is this is an initiative sponsored by NY State. A new ALC-42E locomotive (which will likely look similar to the ALC-42) will be diesel powered with third rails (for use in Grand Central and Pen Station's tunnels) and can also be powered by a "battery passenger car" or an "auxiliary passenger car" (which has a pantograph) behind the locomotive.

This way during Regen they can charge the batteries and save on fuel by running on battery power in tunnels.

According to this article, they "can be charged by either a 480V external power source, by regenerative braking, or by the diesel engine." My guess it the battery will be used for overall emission reductions, not just through tunnels (not sure how many tunnels there are outside of NYC).

 

[crs1026]

According to this article, they "can be charged by either a 480V external power source, by regenerative braking, or by the diesel engine." My guess it the battery will be used for overall emission reductions, not just through tunnels (not sure how many tunnels there are outside of NYC).

There are a few short tunnels up the Hudson from NYC proper, but frankly a train could coast thru them in less time than it would take to change the power source.

It will be interesting to see how the battery is deployed… acceleration only ? Sustained output at speed? Until it is discharged, and then only once recharged?

I bet it will take several iterations and some trial and error - all good learning.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Whether you think VIA should build catenary or not is a debate worth having.

It's not really a debate given where GO RER is heading.....

 

[ssiguy2]

The reason I brought up CN/CP is that they will be going hydrogen and that has DIRECT implications for VIA.

Contrary to popular belief, VIA is a NATIONAL rail company and not just a Corridor one. As much as I think {and have often stated} VIA should NOT be a national carrier and only a Corridor one and close every line outside QC/Windsor, that will not happen due to politics and therefore VIA must switch to hydrogen and this offers economies of scale.

 

[DirectionNorth]

The reason I brought up CN/CP is that they will be going hydrogen and that has DIRECT implications for VIA.

Useless statement. Until CN and CP actually do hydrogen, we can't be sure of anything.

Contrary to popular belief, VIA is a NATIONAL rail company and not just a Corridor one.

If only.

As much as I think {and have often stated} VIA should NOT be a national carrier and only a Corridor one and close every line outside QC/Windsor, that will not happen due to politics and therefore VIA must switch to hydrogen and this offers economies of scale.

?
If VIA only has Corridor services like you say will happen (doubtful for political reasons), then electrification will be much more likely.

 

[ec_traindriver]

The reason I brought up CN/CP is that they will be going hydrogen and that has DIRECT implications for VIA.

Contrary to popular belief, VIA is a NATIONAL rail company and not just a Corridor one. As much as I think {and have often stated} VIA should NOT be a national carrier and only a Corridor one and close every line outside QC/Windsor, that will not happen due to politics and therefore VIA must switch to hydrogen and this offers economies of scale.

Thank goodness, it still is a national carrier — albeit a maimed one.

Regarding hydrogen, it has to be seen whether fuel cell technology will be chosen, or if railroads will switch to a hydrogen-diesel mix to be used as fuel for existing equipment. Although it isn't CO2-free, the fuel mix makes a 40% emission reduction possible and the technology could be used in tandem with battery helper locomotives charging off regenerative braking.

 

[AHK]

Media Advisory: VIA Rail Unveils the First Test Train of Its Quebec City-Windsor Corridor Fleet Français ​

---

News provided by
VIA Rail Canada Inc.
Nov 26, 2021, 16:02 ET

OTTAWA, ON, Nov. 26, 2021 /CNW/ - VIA Rail's Chairperson of the Board, Françoise Bertrand, and President and CEO Cynthia Garneau invite you to get a first look at our new test train, the first of 32 trainsets to be delivered to VIA Rail to replace its fleet in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor.​

For media participation on-site:
Official photo identification must be presented at registration. Please note that all attendees will be required to show proof of vaccination. Wearing a mask is mandatory.
We ask people who have recently received a positive diagnosis for COVID-19, or are awaiting test results, or who have been exposed to COVID-19, or are experiencing symptoms as described on Health Canada's website, not to attend.

Date:	Tuesday, November 30, 2021
Time:	9:00 a.m. Registration/Vaccine checks
	9:15 a.m. Technical briefing
	9:45 a.m. Train visit followed by official photos
	10:30 a.m. Press conference
Location:	VIA Rail Ottawa Station
	200 Tremblay Road
	K1G 3H5
	(Parking for Media in P2)

SOURCE VIA Rail Canada Inc.

 

[crs1026]

The reason I brought up CN/CP is that they will be going hydrogen and that has DIRECT implications for VIA.

Contrary to popular belief, VIA is a NATIONAL rail company and not just a Corridor one. As much as I think {and have often stated} VIA should NOT be a national carrier and only a Corridor one and close every line outside QC/Windsor, that will not happen due to politics and therefore VIA must switch to hydrogen and this offers economies of scale.

I don't see any of this as anywhere near cast in stone, as you suggest.

CP is about to experiment with hydrogen, yes, largely on the back of the Alberta government's interest in stimulating a hydrogen industry out there. They are at a very early stage technically and certainly have not committed to a more broader supply infrastructure.

CN is not merely a "national" entity but more properly a "network" entity within the North American rail industry. That happens to be an industry that (for good reason) thinks and acts as a herd. Interchangeability, compatability, interoperability, and mass purchasing power all are valued. As is the caution to not act broadly until a solution is repeatedly tried and validated.

As it stands, railway locomotives travel continent-wide.... the well- celebrated CP "D-Day" locomotive visited California this past week, for instance. Neither CP nor CN are about to switch to a power system that precludes that. The industry's direction will inform their decisions.

And then there is the issue of money. Government here and in the US have not figured out what tax or other incentives/stimuli they might apply towards (or away from) hydrogen. The financial markets have not formed an opinion on whether moving to hydrogen would be a good thing for rail investors and creditors. That means CN/CP cannot yet borrow or raise money to make such a switch.

I swear, if a cat crosses your path on the street, you assume it's a sign that hydrogen is coming.

And where's VIA in all this? The tail, not the dog.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

Contrary to popular belief, VIA is a NATIONAL rail company and not just a Corridor one.

If only.

Not sure what doubts there are about VIA being a national carrier, but two of its three mandates serve all 8 provinces which haven't voluntarily disconnected themselves from the transcontinental rail network. Could there be more service than the 6 services a week which serve New Brunswick or Nova? For sure, but apart from maybe Quebec, I struggle to see much action from provincial governments to bring more services in the schedules or more routes onto the map...