VIA Rail

[kEiThZ]

2) Fully agreed and @roger1818 can attest that this is something I've consistently argued in this and other forums

3) Have a closer look at the map below:

Missed the part where they are skipping Coteau. Good. Still doesn't make sense why they are building an Ottawa bypass. It's two suburban stations and two small town stations and about 60 km more distance. They can absolutely make that up with the right investments. I hope they come to their senses on this one.

1) These are details which can presumably still be changed at any time

Interesting. I thought they may have already decided on station placement. It's an interesting dilemma. Because Kennedy station would be absolutely amazing for integration with GO and TTC. Much better than what's there at Guildwood now. But it's really poor for Durham passengers losing direct inter-metro service at Oshawa. A Don Cousens and 14th station would be pretty easy to access from the 407 or Steeles/Taunton. Could probably run shuttle services from the GO stations to that HFR station.

 

[kEiThZ]

My understanding of tilting is that it only increases the possible amount of cant deficiency (i.e. unbalanced super-elevation), not of total cant (i.e. the sum of actual cant and cant deficiency). This limits the speed advantage of active tilting (a very complex and thus unreliable technology) to lines which are owned by freight railroads, who are reluctant to accept high actual cant, as it increases maintenance costs substantially on tracks which are shared between passenger and freight tracks. Given that the by far most curvy parts would presumably be exclusive to HFR trains without any sharing with freight trains (Havelock Sub, east of Havelock), there is virtually no benefit in procuring tilting rolling stock.

This is interesting. I guess VIA could also buy the sub and restrict CP access contractually to just west of Havelock.

 

[p_xavier]

Do you mean the Charger or Venture configurations?

Wikipedia has a decent description of the different configurations of the Siemens Charger locomotive. It says VIA is getting the SC-44. CoasterFan2105 did an interesting 3 part series on the construction of the ALC-42 (Amtrak Long distance Charger 4,200 hp) where he was invited to tour the factory. Much of what is shown is applicable to the SC-44 though.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvJ9aDWXPDzRw4uL2-2Nv4oS6TGwkYZ1J

As for the Venture, not many details are known and the details that have been published by VIA are later changed in future publications.

There were pics in this thread about the different car configurations, I don't want to spend hours to find them again,

 

[p_xavier]

Thats not my understanding at all.

I believe the current units being made by Siemens are for the current Lakeshore corridor, and VIA has an option to order more for the HFR plan, but have not.

I'm saying they should not and put in a different order for HFR that would be better for the route.

Me too, with all smaller cities on existing routes saying we will get much better service with HFR, either VIA is lying or the cities didn't get the notice.

 

[Urban Sky]

There were pics in this thread about the different car configurations, I don't want to spend hours to find them again,

And I don't want to spend minutes finding something for someone who doesn't know how to kindly ask for a favour...

Me too, with all smaller cities on existing routes saying we will get much better service with HFR, either VIA is lying or the cities didn't get the notice.

As I've explained a mere four posts above yours', VIA's ongoing Fleet Renewal Program includes 32 trainsets for a full replacement of the existing Corridor fleet and an option for an additional 16 trainsets in case HFR gets approved...

 

[kEiThZ]

Me too, with all smaller cities on existing routes saying we will get much better service with HFR, either VIA is lying or the cities didn't get the notice.

It's really simple math. If 32 trains is enough for all of the Corridor, the performance gains of HFR should be more than enough for HFR and Lakeshore.

If HFR gets a train from Toronto to Montreal in 4.5 hrs, I presume the block time for that train would go from over 7 hrs to under 6 hrs (departure from Union to departure from Montreal) allowing that trainset to do 3 runs in a day, as an example. That 15% gain would translate to 1-2 fewer trainsets required for HFR as compared to running the same service on Lakeshore.

And there's also the combination of Ottawa and Montreal traffic (though this is debatable now). Combining traffic should also reduced the number of sets required.

So maybe something like an allocation of 10 trains to Corridor West, 10 trains to the Kingston Hub and 12 trains to HFR would do just fine.

 

[p_xavier]

It's really simple math. If 32 trains is enough for all of the Corridor, the performance gains of HFR should be more than enough for HFR and Lakeshore.

If HFR gets a train from Toronto to Montreal in 4.5 hrs, I presume the block time for that train would go from over 7 hrs to under 6 hrs (departure from Union to departure from Montreal) allowing that trainset to do 3 runs in a day, as an example. That 15% gain would translate to 1-2 fewer trainsets required for HFR as compared to running the same service on Lakeshore.

And there's also the combination of Ottawa and Montreal traffic (though this is debatable now). Combining traffic should also reduced the number of sets required.

So maybe something like an allocation of 10 trains to Corridor West, 10 trains to the Kingston Hub and 12 trains to HFR would do just fine.

Still worse service for the current corridor, which was my point. City mayors said this week that their stations would get better service with HFR. *Cornwall, *Kingston. I can't see it yet and would gladly get more info on how it would be possible. There were some mentions on keeping all the newer chargers on the current route and options for HFR, which I would get.

From the Sky:
1) There will no longer be 17 frequencies between Kingston and Toronto; therefore, the fleet requirements for non-HFR services will be less than the 32 trainsets currently in production.


So how Kingston will get better service from HFR.

 

[Urban Sky]

Still worse service for the current corridor, which was my point. City mayors said this week that their stations would get better service with HFR. *Cornwall, *Kingston. I can't see it yet and would gladly get more info on how it would be possible. There were some mentions on keeping all the newer chargers on the current route and options for HFR, which I would get.

These smaller cities might not in all cases retain as many nominal stops as currently, but certainly a more useful schedule (e.g. a first train of the day from KGON/BRKV/CWLL which arrives in MTRL already in the morning rather than just at noon, as opposed to multiple pairs of trains operating along the Lakeshore less than 20 minutes apart). Just read the explanations in my last reply and search for posts of myself in which I mention "Belleville" and "Cobourg" and you might understand better why the utility of a schedule is not necessarily proportional to the number of stops a station receives...

 

[kEiThZ]

Still worse service for the current corridor, which was my point. City mayors said this week that their stations would get better service with HFR. *Cornwall, *Kingston. I can't see it yet and would gladly get more info on how it would be possible. There were some mentions on keeping all the newer chargers on the current route and options for HFR, which I would get.

If your only metric on service is the number of trains stopping at Kingston, it's worse service. But if you actually listened to what the Mayor of Kingston said in his video, the schedule will now be centered around their needs. Not those of passengers departing from the big metros. What use is VIA to folks in Kingston if say the first departure is after 1030, like it is today?

And Kingston, Belleville, Coburg, Oshawa and Brockville might see a slight drop in the total number of trains. But there are stations like Port Hope and Trenton that are probably going to see an increase in the number of trains calling at them.

I trust the mayors and councils in these communities to actually know what service is good for their communities.

As for the options for additional trains, they are probably needed if VIA is going to increase frequencies. Or presumably if their network design doesn't deliver sufficient efficiencies, say with an Ottawa bypass that negates the benefits of combining Ottawa and Montreal traffic.

 

[p_xavier]

If you had understood the less-than-subtle difference between actually "asking for information" (i.e. asking for a favor) and requesting information (i.e. a request), you could have saved yourself these 30 minutes of fruitless search and everyone this fruitless discussion...


Maybe not in all cases as many nominal stops as currently, but certainly a more useful schedule (e.g. a train from KGON/BRKV/CWLL which arrives in MTRL already in the morning rather than just at noon, as opposed to multiple pairs of trains operating along the Lakeshore less than 20 minutes apart). Just read the explanations in my last reply and search for posts of myself in which I mention "Belleville" and "Cobourg"...

I don't do feelings.

That was my point from the get go. I would love to see the tangible gains from HFR in the current corridor as it has not been explicitely explained yet.

 

[kEiThZ]

I would love to see the tangible gains from HFR in the current corridor as it has not been explicitely explained yet.

You should at least be open to what Mayor Patterson says here:

Being fixated on just one aspect (number of trains) is exactly the kind of concern trolling I was referring to earlier.

 

[kEiThZ]

A quick look at Kingston shows how bad the current schedule is for them. Just look at Kingston to Toronto. First train departs at 1036. Last train returns at 2018. In the 9h 12 mins, you have to fit in 5h 13 mins of scheduled travel. That doesn't include pre-boarding. So realistically the very best possible schedule today allows any person doing an out and back from Kingston to Toronto, about 3-3.5 hrs in Toronto. And that's assuming their train from Kingston isn't late because of a cascading delay from Ottawa or Montreal.

There's a reason the mayors are happy to trade this for a hub in Kingston. This schedule is all but unusable for day trips. And the timings are so ridiculous that no working person would use them. It's for retirees and students.

 

[David_Brown]

Prior to Covid, there were several morning trains from Kingston to Toronto. I regularly used VIA from Belleville, but the current schedule is useless. There are 9 trains to Toronto most days, but the earliest one departs 11:20am. They’ve just recently reinstated a morning train to Montreal. It departs Belleville at 10:20am. Pre Covid there was an 8:30 departure.

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't do feelings.

Nobody forces you to anything. Nevertheless, you might one day realize that people are much more willing to do what you want them to do if you at least pretend that you recognize, respect and value the efforts and contributions they make. Psychopaths could never be so successful in manipulating others, if they didn't exploit this nature of human feelings...

That was my point from the get go. I would love to see the tangible gains from HFR in the current corridor as it has not been explicitely explained yet.

Let's try an example which you mind more tangible, in which we compare two different timetable scenarios [Note: all timings I mention below refer to the last pre-covid schedules, which you can find here]:

1) A schedule where trains stopping en-route in Alexandria arrive Montreal at 12:15 (#24), 13:16 (#34), 16:15 (#26), 18:15 (#28) and 20:57 (#38)
2) A schedule where trains stopping en-route in Aexandria arrive Montreal at 08:31 (#22), 13:16 (#34) and 20:57 (#38)

Which schedule has more departures in Alexandria?
Which schedule suits your personal needs better?

Now consider that the first train leaving Kingston and Cornwall arrives in Montreal at 11:57 (#60). Or that in order to get from Brockville to Montreal in the morning, you have to leave with #41 at 06:51 and wait 1:40h in Kingston before transferring onto #60, which still arrives only at 11:57 in Montreal (i.e. after more than 5 hours for a distance of just 204 km). Or that there is no train which allows you to travel from Cobourg and Belleville between 14:26 (#644) 18:48 (#54). Or that the earliest you can arrive in Belleville or Cobourg from Montreal on a Sunday is at 14:27 or 15:04, respectively (#65). Or that the latest you get from Cobourg to Montreal on a Saturday is by leaving at 14:26 and then waiting 1h50 in Kingston for #66 (total travel time: more than 5.5 hours for 426 km distance). Let alone that the only train from Kingston to Napanee or Port Hope leaves already at 05:32, whereas the earliest train from Port Hope, Trenton Junction and Napanee arrives in Kingston at 20:09. And can you believe that there is a two hour gap in the PM peak (from #46@15:40 to #54@17:40) for trains leaving from Toronto to Kingston (!)?

At the same time, three pairs of trains leave Kingston for Toronto less than 20 minutes apart:

• #43@09:13 and #61@09:26 (i.e. 13 minutes apart)
• #53@13:39 and #65@13:45 (i.e. 6 minutes apart - with both stopping in Belleville and Oshawa)
• #69@19:02 and #647@19:20 (i.e. 18 minutes apart - with both stopping in Oshawa only)

In the opposite direction, three pairs of trains leave Toronto less than 30 minutes apart:

• #66@15:15 and #46@15:40 (i.e. 25 minutes apart - with both stopping at Oshawa and Kingston)
• #646@16:35 and #68@17:00 (i.e. 25 minutes apart - with both stopping in Oshawa, but neither stopping in Kingston)
• #54@17:40 and #668@18:07 (i.e. 27 minutes apart - with both trains stopping in Guildwood, Oshawa and Kingston)

Note that together with trains #50/60 and #52/62 (which both operate as one single train from Toronto to just west of Brockville, where they split and continue separately to Ottawa and Montreal, respectively), there are thus five pairs of trains which operate less than 30 minutes apart, which means that if you merge all trains which are less than 30 minutes apart from another train, your eastbound train count would decrease from currently (nominally) 17 to (effectively) 12 trains - which might ring a bell:

https://twitter.com/x/status/890579315255123968

Given that reducing the end-to-end travel time is the key driver of retaining competitiveness in the primary markets (Toronto-Ottawa, Toronto-Montreal and Ottawa-Montreal - i.e. where competition from other modes like the coach and plane are the fiercest), there is a pressure to make as few intermediary stops as possible, thus squeezing the number of stops each of these intermediary stations receives. At the same time, the fact all these three primary markets are served by separate routes leads to a very high number of Express trains (causing the duplication of services I've just highlighted above), which is the main reason that there are essentially only three trains focused around the intermediary markets along the Lakeshore (and their local needs):

• #651: leaving Kingston at 05:32 and making all intermediary stops before reaching Toronto at 08:25
• #54: leaving Toronto at 17:40 and making all intermediary stops until Kingston, before running non-stop to Fallowfield, followed by a final stop in Ottawa (arr. 22:07)
• #48: leaving Toronto at 18:40 and making all intermediary stops before reaching Ottawa at 23:16

In conclusion, the current (i.e. pre-covid - see the note in bold and italics further up) schedule fails to serve any of these intermediary communities well, so that most have somewhat useful service only to/from Toronto, if at all (Gananoque anyone?).

In contrast, the main contribution of HFR would be to consolidate the primary markets onto one single trunk route (Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal), thus increasing the number of frequencies offered in any of these three primary markets, without actually increasing the overall train mileage of trains serving primary markets. This allows the reorganization of the remaining Lakeshore services, by focusing on local needs without the pressure to keep end-to-end travel times (which matter little for someone living in Kingston, Belleville or Brockville) low. The result will be less overall trains travelling on the Lakeshore, but collectively they will be making many more stops, thus fostering local connectivity.

So, just to highlight what additional stops do for local connectivity: Trains 40 and 45 each make only 4 stops (Toronto-Kingston-Fallowfield-Ottawa - or v.v.), meaning that they only serve 6 (4 stops times the 3 other stops divided by two) different origin-destination pairs. Conversely, train #48 with its 14 stops at every station from Toronto to Ottawa serves 91 (14 stops times the other 13 stops divided by 2) origin-destination pairs. This means that local train #48 provides 15 times the connectivity which express trains #40 and #45 provide.

I know this was quite an extensive post, so maybe let that just sink for a moment...

PS: these are two posts with the configurations of the Siemens Trainsets which you were looking for today (I just happened to stumble over them again yesterday):

VIA Rail

The bigger question is when the feds intend to declare their commitment to the project The HFR booster community is about to get a taste of what seemed to make pro-pipeline people so mad. As the regulator you have to play coy. Even if you really want to say yes. Perhaps even more so. The...

urbantoronto.ca

VIA Rail

The train follows a predictable route. They lay over at stations. You can charge at the end of the line during layovers. It's not that hard. I agree, though I still think charging at most if not all stations would help. Also solar panels should help with charging, I think only thin film...

urbantoronto.ca

 

[p_xavier]

Thanks for the links.

And for your question, the answer is 2). Daily commuting becomes a reality with better scheduling. Many, myself included, need day trips for work. Cornwall for one, could be a candidate for an early morning train for people who work in Montreal. This demand will only increase with higher home prices forcing people to live further away.

Also why can't I book a business class trip to Toronto? I can only book in economy for the Alexandria-Ottawa part. I emailed the service and they said they can't garantee the connexion, which IMO has nothing to do with booking class. Well it's more about not being able to book Alexandria-Ottawa in business, which I did last year.