VIA Rail

[crs1026]

All of these features will be controlled by a computer system that will calculate the best way utilize the battery on the planned route (when to fully charge the battery from diesel and when to leave room for regenerative breaking). Saving fuel not only saves the railways money, it also reduce emissions.

To me, the "smart" part of this is the most interesting. The recharging cycle may be more complex than just brake/recharge, throttle/discharge. And for now, the diesel may not disappear.

A train running at full speed with a fully-charged battery might benefit from using up the battery power, so there is room to recover energy when it next slows down. A train at rest (say, waiting for their turn to move) with low battery charge might benefit from being charged by the diesel, so there is more battery energy on hand to assist with acceleration, meaning the diesel can be smaller. Fixed charging and recovery locations might exist rather than end-to-end wires. Locomotive behaviour may vary from location to location based on the anticipated gradient and energy need/recovery potential as it appears in real time.

It's too soon to know which of these will be found to be of value.

The particular differentiator for passenger trains is HEP. The most modern locomotives can pass traction, auxiliary gen, and regen energy back and forth between traction and HEP load. The moving and at-rest power demands are a lot different for passenger than for freight.

For VIA, this means they have to wait and see what the industry develops, and how CP/CN deploy it, and what other passenger operators do.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Keithz....................so your alternative to diesel trains is to do nothing at all?

Until the technology catches up and the government is willing to fund a conversion, VIA should do nothing at all.

You seem to be forgetting that VIA is a crown corp and that the government decides what capital investments are made. Not VIA management.

Well if Ottawa decides to use that theory then I can't wait for CN & CP to take them to court because one rail system gets a pass and the other doesn't.

What exactly would they take them to court for? It is you that has invented this imaginary decarbonization of rail. The government has no such policy. They have some vague pronouncements and trials for some tech. But they have no hard deadlines or rules. So there's nothing to fight in court over. Don't mistake some rhetoric from the Liberals for actual policy. And the Conservatives aren't even bothering with rhetoric. The rails won't be decarbonizing for a very, very long time in Canada.

Let's assume, however, that Ottawa lets VIA keep polluting til the end of time, there is also another reality.........in 30 years VIA won't have any suppliers.

Correct. And in 30 years, the Chargers that VIA just bought will be old and ready for replacement. This is repeatedly what I have said on this thread. They can (and probably will) pursue electrification in 15-20 years when they've gotten past most of the useful economic life of the Chargers. Somewhere around 2035-2040, that's when we might hear about electrifying Corridor ops, unless we see substantial political motivation to put down OCS for the whole Corridor.

Whether you, or I, think VIA should go battery, catenary, hydrogen, or horse & buggy is completely irrelevant. The stark reality is that VIA is going to have to move to a completely sustainable and zero emissions fleet and it's not going to come cheap.

But it will be a lot cheaper than doing anything today. And that is the point. Batteries, hydrogen fuel cells, signalling systems, communications systems, AI software, etc will all be much cheaper a decade from now. And even more so in 15-20 years. Just in time to recapitalize some or all of VIA's fleet.

I think the likely plan is something like this:

1) Let GO RER Kitchener get substantially built out by 2030, with OCS installed. The Pearson transit hub might also happen by then.

2) Build out HFR West to Windsor by 2035.

3) Around 2030-2035 procure proven battery electric rolling stock and build up OCS as required on the rural stretches, and cascade the Siemens Chargers and maybe even the Siemens Venture fleet to VIA long haul operations.

4) Around 2045 start planning for the deployment of hydrogen traction on the long haul fleet.

That's a timeline that lines up with actual technological development in the rail sector. VIA ain't going to move faster than the rest of the world.

 

[kEiThZ]

To me, the "smart" part of this is the most interesting. The recharging cycle may be more complex than just brake/recharge, throttle/discharge. And for now, the diesel may not disappear.

It's still very early for rail. Especially for long haul of any kind. And especially for freight.

They need to look at the spectrum of tech. The turbine + battery idea proposed earlier for example. Or hydrogen fuel cells + battery + OCS. Or these diesel-battery consists. Etc. There's a lot of different options. It will take time to study and test most of that. I don't foresee CP and CN coming to any definitive strategy before 2030. They may just have some interim plans to help cut down emissions, like these hybrid consists. And it helps them that the carbon tax hurts them less than road freight.

VIA has even less pressure than CN and CP. It's vastly more efficient than driving and flying per pax-km. And it's going to stay that way for at least two decades the way that automotive electrification is going in Canada. Moreover, simply using installed OCS in the GO RER network, would start making a dent on emissions. So VIA not only has less pressure, but an easier path than freight. And that's if the government cares at all. Which they don't. The only way I see actual electrification for VIA, is if some government decides to make a political show out of electrifying VIA and I can't even see the Liberals doing that, when they haven't gotten around to a firm commitment on HFR yet.

 

[Darwinkgo]

Here is some interesting context on requiring CN and CP to do climate reporting:

Canada’s railroads endorse climate proposals in rare support for shareholder activism - The Logic

Shareholders of CN and CP will vote on a U.K. hedge-fund billionaire’s climate proposal at their annual general meetings this month

thelogic.co

investors will vote on bold climate-change resolutions that could compel both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific to publicize their carbon footprints, and give shareholders a say in how they can improve them

From when they were first proposed:

Large railway shareholder seeks CN, CP climate plans and strategies to cut emissions

One of the largest shareholders of Canada's two main railways is calling on them to present climate plans at their upcoming annual meetings and strategies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[roger1818]

It's still very early for rail. Especially for long haul of any kind. And especially for freight.

Agreed. It is likely 5 or more before these battery slave locomotives come to market.

They need to look at the spectrum of tech. The turbine + battery idea proposed earlier for example. Or hydrogen fuel cells + battery + OCS. Or these diesel-battery consists. Etc. There's a lot of different options. It will take time to study and test most of that. I don't foresee CP and CN coming to any definitive strategy before 2030. They may just have some interim plans to help cut down emissions, like these hybrid consists. And it helps them that the carbon tax hurts them less than road freight.

Exactly. It will be very much an incremental approach.

VIA has even less pressure than CN and CP. It's vastly more efficient than driving and flying per pax-km. And it's going to stay that way for at least two decades the way that automotive electrification is going in Canada.

I would argue that transporting freight by rail shows significantly more efficiency gains over driving and flying than transporting passengers by rail, especially over long distances. We are only just starting to see electric transport trucks and they are only good for short haul. We are a long ways away from long haul electric trucks.

Moreover, simply using installed OCS in the GO RER network, would start making a dent on emissions. So VIA not only has less pressure, but an easier path than freight. And that's if the government cares at all. Which they don't. The only way I see actual electrification for VIA, is if some government decides to make a political show out of electrifying VIA and I can't even see the Liberals doing that, when they haven't gotten around to a firm commitment on HFR yet.

The electrification of GO will be key in VIA's plans to electrify the corridor. Even in the corridor, VIA owns a very small percentage of the ROW they use, so they need to rely on electrification by the ROW owner. Outside of the corridor, VIA is 100% dependant on CN and CP's plans for electrification.

 

[drum118]

With the ban in effect stopping people coming into Ontario from Quebec, what is VIA doing about it and are they going to comply with the requirement like roads???

 

[roger1818]

Here is some interesting context on requiring CN and CP to do climate reporting:

Canada’s railroads endorse climate proposals in rare support for shareholder activism - The Logic

Shareholders of CN and CP will vote on a U.K. hedge-fund billionaire’s climate proposal at their annual general meetings this month

thelogic.co

From when they were first proposed:

Large railway shareholder seeks CN, CP climate plans and strategies to cut emissions

One of the largest shareholders of Canada's two main railways is calling on them to present climate plans at their upcoming annual meetings and strategies to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

www.ctvnews.ca

Not really surprising. Rail is by far the most environmentally friendly way of transporting goods. Climate reporting will only highlight this and new technologies implemented to save them money will further reduce their carbon footprint. It also gives them a strong argument to keep passenger trains off of their main lines.

 

[Allandale25]

Budget is out. Trying to find the complete PDF to see if HFR is mentioned. This is all I've found so far and it's general and doesn't mention VIA/HFR.

Jobs and Growth Through Infrastructure Investments​

Infrastructure is what keeps people moving and what keeps our economy growing.

The government has accomplished a great deal in building and renewing Canada's major infrastructure since 2016. But more needs to be done to build up our communities and ensure our economy has the 21st century infrastructure we need to be competitive. Budget 2021 lays out the government's plan to revitalize Canada's infrastructure, to invest in community priorities, and to build projects that contribute to a clean environment and create good middle class jobs.

In total, Budget 2021 includes over $26 billion over six years (on a cash basis) for more reliable and accessible public transit, distinctions-based support for infrastructure in Indigenous communities, small crafts harbours, the construction and repair of energy efficient and affordable housing, and much more. These projects will create good middle-class jobs from coast to coast to coast.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Update. "High Frequency Rail" is referenced in the budget:

Text version:

• Next Step Towards High Frequency Rail in the Toronto-Quebec City Corridor​

  High frequency rail has the potential to transform passenger rail service in the Toronto-Quebec City corridor, offering faster, more reliable service, and helping to encourage the shift to rail from more polluting modes of transportation.
  In 2019, the Government of Canada established a Joint Project Office to explore VIA Rail Canada’s high frequency rail project. This effort is critical to making this project a reality for Canadians.
  • To continue this work, Budget 2021 proposes to provide $4.4 million in 2021-22 to Transport Canada and VIA Rail Canada to support their work with the Joint Project Office in order to advance due diligence and to de-risk the project.
  • In addition, Budget 2021 proposes to provide $491.2 million over six years, starting in 2021-22, to VIA Rail Canada for infrastructure investments that would support the overall success of the high frequency rail project. These investments will help reduce bottlenecks, improve fluidity and connectivity, and allow VIA to take an important step towards high frequency rail in the corridor.

 

[sacred]

^ Update. "High Frequency Rail" is referenced in the budget:

View attachment 313728

Are you kidding me. The biggest budget ever and they couldn't sneak it in.

 

[littlewill1166]

^ Update. "High Frequency Rail" is referenced in the budget:

View attachment 313728

Hopefully, that $491 million will make VIA's part of the Chatham sub less bumpy.

 

[Allandale25]

^ It sounds like this funding is for the HFR corridor which includes the CP Belleville, Havelock, and other subs all east of Toronto, not the Chatham Sub: http://www.niagararails.com/chatham.phtml

 

[sacred]

^ Update. "High Frequency Rail" is referenced in the budget:

View attachment 313728

Click to expand...

Text version:

• Next Step Towards High Frequency Rail in the Toronto-Quebec City Corridor​

  High frequency rail has the potential to transform passenger rail service in the Toronto-Quebec City corridor, offering faster, more reliable service, and helping to encourage the shift to rail from more polluting modes of transportation.
  In 2019, the Government of Canada established a Joint Project Office to explore VIA Rail Canada’s high frequency rail project. This effort is critical to making this project a reality for Canadians.
  • To continue this work, Budget 2021 proposes to provide $4.4 million in 2021-22 to Transport Canada and VIA Rail Canada to support their work with the Joint Project Office in order to advance due diligence and to de-risk the project.
  • In addition, Budget 2021 proposes to provide $491.2 million over six years, starting in 2021-22, to VIA Rail Canada for infrastructure investments that would support the overall success of the high frequency rail project. These investments will help reduce bottlenecks, improve fluidity and connectivity, and allow VIA to take an important step towards high frequency rail in the corridor.

Can you link to the budget please? Can't find it :/

 

[Allandale25]

^ Update. "High Frequency Rail" is referenced in the budget:

View attachment 313728

Text version:

• Next Step Towards High Frequency Rail in the Toronto-Quebec City Corridor​

  High frequency rail has the potential to transform passenger rail service in the Toronto-Quebec City corridor, offering faster, more reliable service, and helping to encourage the shift to rail from more polluting modes of transportation.
  In 2019, the Government of Canada established a Joint Project Office to explore VIA Rail Canada’s high frequency rail project. This effort is critical to making this project a reality for Canadians.
  • To continue this work, Budget 2021 proposes to provide $4.4 million in 2021-22 to Transport Canada and VIA Rail Canada to support their work with the Joint Project Office in order to advance due diligence and to de-risk the project.
  • In addition, Budget 2021 proposes to provide $491.2 million over six years, starting in 2021-22, to VIA Rail Canada for infrastructure investments that would support the overall success of the high frequency rail project. These investments will help reduce bottlenecks, improve fluidity and connectivity, and allow VIA to take an important step towards high frequency rail in the corridor.

Further update. Two more references to HFR:

Not sure why this says "396 million" and the text above says "491.2 million".

 

[Allandale25]

Can you link to the budget please? Can't find it :/

Budget 2021

A Recovery Plan for Jobs, Growth, and Resilience

www.budget.gc.ca