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VIA Rail

I will never understand how people get all skeptical over the estimates from $70M worth of survey, analysis and engineering by the VIA-CIB JPO and yet will take that ViaFast $2.5B estimate from two decades ago as gospel, a reliable number that just needs to be escalated for inflation. Their study and modeling was hardly all that detailed. Even for the era.

The VIaFAST number was imprecise and, (like most first proposal numbers), likely lowballed, absolutely. The best one can do is guesstimate the multiple to apply to bulk out that original estimate.

Development has driven land prices upwards, but for the amount of land needed, that won’t drive the cost of the entire project up by a factor of six, especially since every HxR proposal assumes shared or enlarged use of an existing rail corridors through the urbanised areas where land prices are highest. We aren’t expropriating a 400-series highway corridor here :)

I would think that the alignment chosen in open country would have a bigger impact. For instance, a single bridge at a river crossing would add $50M. Some of the larger valleys (Don, Ganaraska, Trent, Moira, Napanee, Ottawa) would be considerably more, which is why studies seem to presume sharing with CP/CN or avoid them altogether. HFR does particularly well in that regard (except maybe over the Don, or at Peterboro).

Count the number of rivers and creeks between the end points, and costs add up. This is as true to double track a presently single track line as it is to propose a brand new alignment. Blasting through solid rock isn’t cheap, either. Wetland routings will be especially constraining, not so much because fill is expensive as the route may have to be constrained or bells and whistles added to mitigate environmental concerns.

My own SWAG for escalating VIAFast would be a factor of 3, and I have absolutely nothing behind that statement to support it. I’m not arguing towards VIAFast, I’m just challenging the rhetoric. HFR may be the lower priced option, but we don’t have to rewrite the data to make the comparisons more dramatic than they might be.

- Paul
 
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You couldn't do incremental upgrades to get you to 350km/h service that is expected on the new HSR systems in Europe and Asia without it being a complete fortune because the line isn't near straight enough and the terrain would be expensive to work with, but you should be able to make incremental upgrades to have the Peterborough - Perth corridor run 200km/h. Toronto to Peterborough in 45min, Peterborough to Ottawa in 90 min, Total time 2h 15min as compared to 4h 45min today. 4h 45min is longer than it takes to drive the Havelock route and that road has lots of slow sections. Add about 1h 15min to Montreal, that is 3h 30min as compared to 5h 10min today.
That's it! The Corridor doesn't need 350km/h service. All it needs is enough speed to compete with planes and cars, a reliable schedule and proper connections with transit, YUL and YYZ. Just with that VIA would be in a strong position to win corporate contracts, which is truly where the money is.
 
You couldn't do incremental upgrades to get you to 350km/h service that is expected on the new HSR systems in Europe and Asia without it being a complete fortune because the line isn't near straight enough and the terrain would be expensive to work with, but you should be able to make incremental upgrades to have the Peterborough - Perth corridor run 200km/h. Toronto to Peterborough in 45min, Peterborough to Ottawa in 90 min, Total time 2h 15min as compared to 4h 45min today. 4h 45min is longer than it takes to drive the Havelock route and that road has lots of slow sections. Add about 1h 15min to Montreal, that is 3h 30min as compared to 5h 10min today.

Railfans are weird folks who gatekeep on HSR definitions.

The better way to look at it is target travel time. Toronto-Montreal in 3.5 hrs and Toronto-Ottawa in 2.5 hrs would basically end Porter and reduce AC/WS service to almost exclusively feeder service. As it stands, 3:15 Toronto-Ottawa and 2:20 Montreal-Quebec are big hits for the airlines that should eliminate a lot of point to point customers.
 
These struck me as the two most interesting quotes. One about relationships with landlord railroads, and one about where the HFR BCA stands.

- Paul

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That is what I like about HFR... it is a first step on which everything else can be built. Smooth out a curve here, put in a grade separation there, double track a stretch, electrify a stretch for greater acceleration and utilize EDMUs, etc... every investment has some level of benefit returned. Sharing tracks and having lower priority isn't something that can be built on.

The interesting thing about the incremental improvements is they won't really shave that many minutes off of what VIA achieves with the base HFR build. When you increase one curve from 80 mph to 110 mph, you don't save that much time.

I would actually hope that the priority for incremental investment afterwards is in pushing the network out further, eg to London and beyond.

- Paul
 
Just to avoid disappointment: the “HFR Business Case” can’t be downloaded anywhere on the Globe and Mail’s website, not even as a paying subscriber... ;)

Yeah, the person who wrote that misspoke. I think they meant "Was able to access the HFR portion of the Globe and Mail interview with the VIA Rail CEO and here it is:"
 

or on the new network we are proposing to connect more new communities
That statement is really worrisome for me. The focus of HFR is not some milk run train that services every ted and susy's backyard hamlet town. Its supposed to be a high speed frequent connection between areas of ridership potential and destinations, aka cities.

If thats the mentality of the new CEO of VIA I have little hope for her turning VIA around. Her mentality is no different than the original purpose and vision of VIA over 40 years ago that needs to change: as a life-support for the dying passenger rail industry of the 1970s simply to make sure that trains exist in some minimal form for every mom and pop Canadian who can't afford a car. Its whats currently holding both Amtrak and VIA back and will continue to do so unless the mentality changes.
 
That statement is really worrisome for me. The focus of HFR is not some milk run train that services every ted and susy's backyard hamlet town. Its supposed to be a high speed frequent connection between areas of ridership potential and destinations, aka cities.

If thats the mentality of the new CEO of VIA I have little hope for her turning VIA around. Her mentality is no different than the original purpose and vision of VIA over 40 years ago that needs to change: as a life-support for the dying passenger rail industry of the 1970s simply to make sure that trains exist in some minimal form for every mom and pop Canadian who can't afford a car. Its whats currently holding both Amtrak and VIA back and will continue to do so unless the mentality changes.
You’re thinking about this wayy too hard. Getting as much political power on board is key right now. Also, connecting to Peterborough and if the Quebec City segment is done then Trois-Rivières counts as more communities.
Also, no one is allowed to reply to this saying “I don’t think Quebec City will happen if HFR is approved”. This has been discussed at length
 
That statement is really worrisome for me. The focus of HFR is not some milk run train that services every ted and susy's backyard hamlet town. Its supposed to be a high speed frequent connection between areas of ridership potential and destinations, aka cities.
Let me ask you how many times you had to slow down while on board a Montreal-Toronto service to make passenger stops in Gananoque, Napanee, Trenton Junction or Port Hope? In my case it’s been zero times and if you look in any VIA timetable of the last 15 years you will know why...
 
Let me ask you how many times you had to slow down while on board a Montreal-Toronto service to make passenger stops in Gananoque, Napanee, Trenton Junction or Port Hope? In my case it’s been zero times and if you look in any VIA timetable of the last 15 years you will know why...

Ive stopped at Port Hope several times.

The Sarnia train through Kitchener is especially egregious. Talk about a milk run. We stop in Wyoming almost every time for 1 passenger.
 
Ive stopped at Port Hope several times.

The Sarnia train through Kitchener is especially egregious. Talk about a milk run. We stop in Wyoming almost every time for 1 passenger.
So take trains that don't stop in Port Hope. Hardly any if them do.

As for Sarnia, the way that a line with one train per day is run is irrelevant to HFR.
 

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