VIA Rail

[smallspy]

I don't think that would work.

You could either have GO or VIA trains in tow like a J train but I'm not sure how the MU would work. Is that standard?

Even if it was in tow, the cars would need to be powered by its own HEP generator since they are not compatible.

MU is standard across the industry, so long as they have the same 27-pin plugs the trains can be operated together. Same goes for the air system - all locos and rolling stock have the ability to work (at least in a degraded state) with all other rolling stock. I am less sure about the COMM system, however, and which is necessary for VIA when traveling on the mainline.

Dan

 

[roger1818]

Regardless, things should get better as VIA rolls out their new fleet.

 

[dowlingm]

This is a good idea to use commuter cars for excess capacity. Should be done more often. Any train during a storm is better than driving or taking the bus.

Do we think Exo and GO have serviced rolling stock sitting around for VIA to take, and that their respective agencies think it is their responsibility to be VIA’s surge fleet?

Assuming it could be done, would VIA need to have additional on-train staff beyond what the commuter agencies operate with - what are the minimums?

 

[roger1818]

Do we think Exo and GO have serviced rolling stock sitting around for VIA to take, and that their respective agencies think it is their responsibility to be VIA’s surge fleet?

Assuming it could be done, would VIA need to have additional on-train staff beyond what the commuter agencies operate with - what are the minimums?

Also, are bi-level commuter coaches without any luggage racks appropriate for holiday travellers?

 

[crs1026]

Do we think Exo and GO have serviced rolling stock sitting around for VIA to take, and that their respective agencies think it is their responsibility to be VIA’s surge fleet?

Assuming it could be done, would VIA need to have additional on-train staff beyond what the commuter agencies operate with - what are the minimums?

Their operations over the holidays do reduce service and so equipment may be laying over. They will be holding their own spares in reserve to protect their own service, but possibly their reserve needs and VIA's can be optimised for that short period.

Somebody would have to be familiar with the specifics of operation for both driving the train and on board, yes. That might amount to one in the cab and perhaps one rider on board. The mobilization would have to be pre-planned and I'm sure labour availability would be constrained. But if properly preplanned, one would think that even one such trainset would give a bit of breathing room, especially if only called out when an emergency arises.

I'm sure the people stuck on No 55 would have considered a bilevel coach preferable to sitting still. GO coaches have been used in VIA service before. It's not optimal (and their toilets will fill up, too) - but if not loaded to crush loads and kept to shorter routes, it's probably minimally acceptable for one or two hours..

I'm not hardnosed about railway labour utilisation - it's a touchy subject with rail employees, and there is definitely abuse across the industry - but I will still say the following as applicable to any form of travel - rail air bus or whatever:
it's not "unfair" that an industry has a peak period when all hands need to be on deck. Tax accountants don't plan on taking holidays during winter break, because it's tax season. Retail workers don't plan on taking holidays pre-Christmas, for the same reason. There are industries whose peak happens in moose season, and hunters don't get to go hunting because that's when they are most needed at work. In passenger travel, winter break and major holidays are peak travel periods and workers in those industries should not expect to have time off around those times. That's equally true for support staff in the yards and offices. I question how there could be a staff shortage in any transportation industry at Christmas, which is a very much plannable period of peak business.

- Paul

 

[wopchop]

If there is a staff shortage around the holidays because of staff on vacation, or not scheduled at all, that that is evidence of management that doesn't care truly about the service. Clearly someone approved those schedules and vacation requests.

As you said, transportation employees should fully expect to be working at their busiest times of the year - that is the deal. Many other industries have similar requirements, and those employees know that too.

 

[Bordercollie]

If there is a staff shortage around the holidays because of staff on vacation, or not scheduled at all, that that is evidence of management that doesn't care truly about the service. Clearly someone approved those schedules and vacation requests.

As you said, transportation employees should fully expect to be working at their busiest times of the year - that is the deal. Many other industries have similar requirements, and those employees know that too.

So we can blame management forbkot having proper staff on standby plus they knew about the storm a week ahead so there is no excuse why they couldn't have been prepared.

 

[Urban Sky]

Quick question to all the amateur operations control center folks here: if your rescue trains get stuck halfway to the crisis area and all major roads are blocked, how are your relief crews supposed to get to their trains?

I’ve been living here for 10 years by now and I don’t recall any winter storm remotely as bad as the one last weekend, so why are some people here so upset that VIA didn’t have enough spare staff on hand?

I’m trying to think what would have happened in Germany in a situation like this and reached the firm conclusion that the counties worst-affected would have declared a “State of Emergency”, which would have activated disaster-relief units from the military and the Technisches Hilfswerk (Federal Agency for Technical Relief), to reach the trains, provide the passengers and train with the necessary supplies and evacuate, as appropriate:

Technisches Hilfswerk - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Bordercollie]

Quick question to all the amateur operations control center folks here: if your rescue trains get stuck halfway to the crisis area and all major roads are blocked, how are your relief crews supposed to get to their trains?

I’ve been living here for 10 years by now and I don’t recall any winter storm remotely as bad as the one last weekend, so why are aome people here so upset that VIA didn’t have enough spare staff on hand?

I’m trying to think what would have happened in Germany in a situation like this and reached the firm conclusion that the counties worst-affected would have declared a “State of Emergency”, which would have activated disaster-relief units from the military and the Technisches Hilfswerk (Federal Agency for Technical Relief), to reach the trains, provide the passengers and train with the necessary supplies and evacuate, as appropriate:

Technisches Hilfswerk - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But in the Cobourg situation they didn't even alert local authorities who were able to come to the aid of stranded passengers. Why did nobody call emergency services? The road to Toronto may have been closed but the road to Cobourg was not. I don't expect them to be able to get people off the train to their final destination but at least off the train to a shelter or station where there is a washroom and access to food.

It just feels like the entire situation was handled so poorly with no respect to the passengers.

And yes VIA is not immune to the situation since Sunwing is still trying to get people back to Canada a week later. But one passenger was able to book a ticket on airtransat and get home. So why doesn't Sunwing book those passengers on other airlines to get them home? I guess they simply cannot be bothered to have it hurt their bottom line. Profits before passengers. Good luck on that WestJet merger being approved.

 

[wopchop]

Quick question to all the amateur operations control center folks here: if your rescue trains get stuck halfway to the crisis area and all major roads are blocked, how are your relief crews supposed to get to their trains?

I don't think I expect relief crews to get through hell without any issue. That isn't what I am saying at all.

The train was trapped in Cobourg for crying out loud, not in the bush, for something like twenty hours. Probably less than 5 km from Cobourg station. I don't need to be a professional operations control person to know that is unacceptable. Perhaps brushing off criticism as being from "amateurs" is part of the problem.

For this situation, it appears there may have been a shortage of staff on the operations and customer service side. People who can make decisions and keep people informed. Possibly due to the holidays.

If they were truly understaffed due to a combination of the storm and the holidays, what I am trying to say is that the "holidays" should not be an excuse for a transit agency. At all times, they should have the correct number of people working to provide the service.

 

[Urban Sky]

But in the Cobourg situation they didn't even alert local authorities who were able to come to the aid of stranded passengers. Why did nobody call emergency services? The road to Toronto may have been closed but the road to Cobourg was not. I don't expect them to be able to get people off the train to their final destination but at least off the train to a shelter or station where there is a washroom and access to food.

It just feels like the entire situation was handled so poorly with no respect to the passengers.

I deliberately commented only on the question of under-staffing, as I don’t think that the problems on the various trains was caused by the lack of staff on board rather than by the lack of empowerment that staff perceived - or whatever prevented them from reaching out to the local emergency services to see what help can be arranged.

And yes, this is of course a systemic issue at VIA and I probably would still work there had I not gotten frustrated by the big firewall between people who talk to the customer and people who have at least some understanding of operations…

I don't think I expect relief crews to get through hell without any issue. That isn't what I am saying at all.

The train was trapped in Cobourg for crying out loud, not in the bush, for something like twenty hours. Probably less than 5 km from Cobourg station. I don't need to be a professional operations control person to know that is unacceptable. Perhaps brushing off criticism as being from "amateurs" is part of the problem.

For this situation, it appears there may have been a shortage of staff on the operations and customer service side. People who can make decisions and keep people informed. Possibly due to the holidays.

If they were truly understaffed due to a combination of the storm and the holidays, what I am trying to say is that the "holidays" should not be an excuse for a transit agency. At all times, they should have the correct number of people working to provide the service.

As I just wrote above: it would have taken the Service Manager one phone call to get in touch with the local emergency services and to check what kind of help they can provide. As for the Operations Control Center, I don’t think any major rail company can deal adaquately with a quarter or fifth of their operating trainsets getting stuck in emergencies. That’s why Service Managers need to act more empowered next time, so that they act on their own and simply keep OCC in the loop. It seems like there clearly have been errors made on all levels at VIA.

In any case, I didn’t intend to discredit anyone and I’m not exactly sure what would be offensive about being called an “amateur”, unless of course that label is actually applied to your day job. It just means that you aren’t held to the same standards as a “professional”. I’m aware of a second meaning of that word, but if someone calls volunteers or other non-professionals “amateurs”, then he expects a professionalism for which they are neither trained nor paid:

Spoiler

 

[Bordercollie]

I deliberately commented only on the question of under-staffing, as I don’t think that the problems on the various trains was caused by the lack of staff on board as it was caused by the lack of empowerment that staff perceived - or whatever prevented them from reaching out to the local emergency services to see what help can be arranged.

And yes, this is of course a systemic issue at VIA and I probably would still work there had I not gotten frustrated by the big firewall between people who talk to the customer and people who have at least some understanding of operations…


As I just wrote above: it would have taken the Service Manager one phone call to get in touch with the local emergency services and to check what kind of help they can provide. As for the Operations Control Center, I don’t think any major rail company can deal adaquately with a quarter or fifth of their operating trainsets getting stuck in emergencies. That’s why Service Managers need to act more empowered next time, so that they act on their own and simply keep OCC in the loop.

There clearly have been errors made on all levels at VIA, but I’m not exactly sure why anyone should feel offended by being called an “amateur”, unless that label is actually applied to your day job. It just means that you aren’t held to the same standards as a “professional”. I’m aware of a second meaning of that word, but if someone calls volunteers or other non-professionals “amateurs”, then he expects a professionalism for which they are neither trained nor paid:

Spoiler

View attachment 447927

Does anyone believe that there will be a review of policies and changes implemented going forward? Fat chance. Status quo is likely the end result.

 

[wopchop]

In any case, I didn’t intend to discredit anyone and I’m not exactly sure what would be offensive about being called an “amateur”, unless of course that label is actually applied to your day job. It just means that you aren’t held to the same standards as a “professional”. I’m aware of a second meaning of that word, but if someone calls volunteers or other non-professionals “amateurs”, then he expects a professionalism for which they are neither trained nor paid:

In many cases, people often use the 'amateur' label to discredit criticism from the general public that is perfectly valid. If that wasn't your intention, that is fair, but keep in mind that it can come across that way.

 

[smallspy]

But in the Cobourg situation they didn't even alert local authorities who were able to come to the aid of stranded passengers. Why did nobody call emergency services? The road to Toronto may have been closed but the road to Cobourg was not. I don't expect them to be able to get people off the train to their final destination but at least off the train to a shelter or station where there is a washroom and access to food.

Was there an emergency that immediately required emergency services to be called? Everything that I have read indicates that was that it wasn't until several hours into the ordeal that someone finally made the comment about needing medicine. Until that point, it was merely discomfort.

And again, recall that a raging storm is going on outside. The crews are responsible for the passengers. It is likely that they felt that it was safer inside the passenger car - sheltered, and with heat - than to be exposed to the elements.

Dan

 

[lenaitch]

Was there an emergency that immediately required emergency services to be called? Everything that I have read indicates that was that it wasn't until several hours into the ordeal that someone finally made the comment about needing medicine. Until that point, it was merely discomfort.

And again, recall that a raging storm is going on outside. The crews are responsible for the passengers. It is likely that they felt that it was safer inside the passenger car - sheltered, and with heat - than to be exposed to the elements.

Dan

I agree to a point, but when a situation is allowed to deteriorate to the point that the toilets aren't working, that can be a big deal for many. If you are on a road trip and run out of meds after a handful of hours, that could be on you, but it still creates a problem if you do. The thing with a passenger calling emergency services is there is really no other way to reach out. It's not like there is a 912 service that connects you to the Salvation Army, Red Cross or Pizza Pizza. As it has been discussed before, the RTC or VIA Ops should have a list of local services for each area and train crews should be empowered to request them. Evacuating a train, simply for its own sake, does seem rather pointless, given that many passengers might not be dressed for the arduous journey. Despite some of the dramatic social media posts, nobody was starving or dying of thirst, but I do think the issue of the toilets (and any other medical issue) did put it over a line.